Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby windwalker on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:38 pm

I am curious, for those that advocate practicing taiji with weights, how can one feel or sense the 4oz that is often talked about? How can one understand change and emptiness if they remain full and yang.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Franklin on Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Not once have I bashed tai chi
It is an art I have practiced daily since 1973
I am one of the few people who practices the entire yang system


I am curious what the complete yang system that you learned comprises of..
i am not picking a fight
i am genuinely curious- i would like to compare it to what I have learned..

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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:25 pm

windwalker wrote:I am curious, for those that advocate practicing taiji with weights, how can one feel or sense the 4oz that is often talked about? How can one understand change and emptiness if they remain full and yang.


When my kid was small, I sometimes had him on my back while practicing form, low basin, strong stances and core strength practice. This kind of weight is IME good for leg and back strength. But holding heavy weights in the hands, I feel quite stiffening and detrimental to the things you mention. It's like taking a step backwards, and then it takes time to recover. That's why I throwed away everything that is not tai chi. Everything else is too different from what I am working on.
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:51 pm

Standing exercises
Chi Kung
Walking
Slow form 108
Fixed step pushing
Moving step
Walking 4 hands
Ta Lu
San shou
Fast set
Pole 5 forms
Spear 8 step
Broadsword
Straight sword
Each weapon has pushing,San shou and ta Lu type exercises

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Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:01 pm

No troll on the stretching machine Serena
I just thought your request was strange
I am interested how long you have been training for and how old you might be
I found some of your posts quite interesting
You like many other Chen practicioners seem to be very protective of your style
I am not, over the years I have seen some good tai chi and a lot of bad tai chi
I only state what I think
You said I bash tai chi I would like you to show me more than a couple of instances from one thread
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:18 pm

Sorry to troll in again
Two things I didn't address
One I did not advocate weight training I just said it could be done
Two I left out several forms we practice due to the fact they are specific to our lineage and not taught elsewhere in the yang line
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Franklin on Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Standing exercises
Chi Kung
Walking
Slow form 108
Fixed step pushing
Moving step
Walking 4 hands
Ta Lu
San shou
Fast set
Pole 5 forms
Spear 8 step
Broadsword
Straight sword
Each weapon has pushing,San shou and ta Lu type exercises

Noi gung



interesting - thanks for sharing

i got a similar curriculum from my teacher
yang chenfu --> Chu Gui Ting --> Gong Zhong Xiang (my teacher)

standing forms
walking
long form
fixed step push hands
4 hands fixed step
4 hands walking
dalu
san shou
sword
broadsword
long spear power training
(no fixed 2 person training with the weapons but lots of drilling on application and usage)

then later from another teacher (here in taiwan)
I got to learn Taiji Gun training from the yang style tradition
but not entirely sure about the lineage
supposedly there was an altercation during fishing and a guy had to defend himself with his pole
somebody saw it- and asked to learn from him
then later it was brought to taiwan
the pole used is about the same length as a regular spear
it has 8 individual movements
and then 2 person training..


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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Serena on Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:30 pm

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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Patrick on Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:25 am

So what exactly is trained with "heavy hands weighted walking"?

When heavier weights are used, I can think it could be useful for inter muscular coordination, but so would be kettle bell training.
With lighter weights, strength endurance can be trained.

For some general fitness I understand it, but as I learned IMA, you want to transfer your weight intelligently (by superior angles) into your opponents frame, how exactly can weight training help me here?
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby RobP3 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:45 am

Patrick wrote:So what exactly is trained with "heavy hands weighted walking"?

When heavier weights are used, I can think it could be useful for inter muscular coordination, but so would be kettle bell training.
With lighter weights, strength endurance can be trained.

For some general fitness I understand it, but as I learned IMA, you want to transfer your weight intelligently (by superior angles) into your opponents frame, how exactly can weight training help me here?


I've never used kettlebells, but have used sledgehammers in various exercises. Using weights is like anything else, even just movement - it's how you approach it and how you do it. I always found the "Tai Chi doesn't use weights" line interesting as a few lineage holders I know in Yang styles use an iron pole, sledgehammer, light hand weights, iron ball, etc.

From a Systema perspective, I've found certain sledgehammer exercises useful, particularly as the movements can relate to both weapons and empty hand work. As Ryabko demonstrates here, one method of Systema punching is the "hammer" approach. In general Systema strikes call for a good understanding of selective tension / relaxation in both your own and partner's body, which in turn relates very much to the breathing practices. Using this method you can almost "detach" the striking hand from the rest of the body, in stark contrast with some CIMA methods. I've not met anyone with heavier hands than Ryabko - of course "heaviness" is just part of the skill

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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby zrm on Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:46 am

In Ziranmen we use iron rings.

Image

I think its better than holding a weight in your hand while walking because the entire arm bears the load. Seems to makes more sense in the context of IMA and push hands. We also practice lifting an iron ball but we use that for grip training not for form or walking practice.

One of my kung fu brothers practices Cheng bagua walk in a 10->20kg weight vest. He said it gave him good results. There is some story going around Cheng Ting Hua used to practice walking wearing Chinese armor but I don't know if there's any truth to that.

I thought practice while carrying a large wooden or iron ball was pretty common in taiji circles?
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:21 am

I've never really understood the whole IMA "I don't like weights" thing.

Particularly since probably 90% of the better players I've met do some kind of resistance training be it barbells, machines, weighted stones, rings, weighted vests, etc.

In terms of messing up form I can see this to a degree. That said, being weaker is always worse than being stronger within most normal parameters.

Or another way of saying this is "given a comparable level of skill, the stronger man wins."

On an anecdotal level, I've met some powerlifters, and more often Olympic weightlifters, with really impressive and fairly well integrated whole body fasciae development.
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:34 am

Peacedog wrote:I've never really understood the whole IMA "I don't like weights" thing.

Particularly since probably 90% of the better players I've met do some kind of resistance training be it barbells, machines, weighted stones, rings, weighted vests, etc.

In terms of messing up form I can see this to a degree. That said, being weaker is always worse than being stronger within most normal parameters.

Or another way of saying this is "given a comparable level of skill, the stronger man wins."


Maybe because your idea of IMA more specifically taiji is not quite correct for some taiji practices, others may have and use different ideas.

粘黏連隨
[4] STICK, ADHERE, CONNECT, AND FOLLOW

粘者提上拔髙之謂也
黏者留戀繾綣之謂也
連者舍己無離之謂也
隨者彼走此應之謂也
要知人之知覺運動非明粘黏連隨不可斯粘黏連隨之功夫亦甚細矣
Sticking means to lift up high.
Adhering means to stay and be attached.
Connecting means to let go of yourself and not separate from the opponent.
Following means to follow him wherever he goes.
If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill.


none of this talks about being stronger, it does talk about being more aware. First of ones self then later applying this to others. The point is not to contest the strength, of course for those that do, being the stronger one is advantageous .

Being the more "aware" one allows one to surf the wave....


For those talking of heavy hands.

Are they heavy because they feel heavy?

Are they heavy because they are heavy?

If the one that the hands are put on does not "feel" that they are heavy are they?
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:08 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby Patrick on Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:59 am

I am not against a form of strength training for fitness and health. In fact, you should do some form of resistance training for health. That is not my point at all.

I can imagine that the training Rob described helps for the systema striking approach. I just want to inquire, what exactly is the benefit in terms of [C]IMA.

When you put weights onto your arms, your intention is on caring or lifting that weight [and your muscles and your whole body will also work in that way] and not on transferring your mass on your opponents frame. To harmonize your intention with your body movement seems to be the most difficult part of training - at least for me. If I have the intent to move in a particular way, my body should move exactly like that. That is why ZZ and Shili are so important [or form training]. For example: I intent to move forward, down and close in a stable fashion...but does my body really do that? What part is out of line, does my strength really go there or am I just imaging it?

Even when it seems to work in solo training, the moment a resisting partner is there the feeling changes. But I should continue on creating that feeling again. When I want to move my partner in that direction, I may know to move in certain way. But to coordinate my body to move in that way fast and effortlessly is very difficult. Additional weight does not really help here - at least I conjecture - because it does not really work in harmonizing the intention and my body movement.

But then again, for health and fitness resistance training is good.
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Re: Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:03 am

because it does not really work in harmonizing the intention and my body movement.


yep ;)
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