Experience with heavy hands weighted walking

[Ron Panunto]

because it does not really work in harmonizing the intention and my body movement.

yep

Not true. I have been training with weights and various styles of IMA since I was a teenager (now 72) and can say with confidence that they blend well together. When I rack a 150 lb barbell on my shoulders (I weigh 150 also) my intention quickly sets up a skeletal path for the weight to drop through directly to the ground through my heals. I can stand this way indefinitely without stress due to perfect alignment. Same with a bench press. Clear the barbell from its rack, balance it overhead and have your intention align the skeleton from your hands through the bench to ground.

And as far as intention, trying to grind out the last few reps will build it like nothing you have ever done, especially when you don't have a spotter. In my experience, weight training, with proper form, will not adversely effect sensitivity. Don't forget that most of the Chen clan were farmers long before farming became mechanized - they worked their ass' off and became strong doing it. So I'm not a farmer, so I choose resistance training, aerobics and Taiji to stay strong and healthy.

[wayne hansen]

Modern weight training is ok but it will never replace manual labour
I worked at the banana markets after 13 years in an office job and 6 years in massage and acupuncture
Two of my teachers thought I needed that hard physical labour to round out my studies
I lifted up to 1000 boxes of fruit a day ranging from 13 to 20 kgs
We stacked 64 to a pallet in rows of 8
3 pallets were layer out small to large
Lifting from 8 high to ground level in a room not much bigger than a container
Bending stretching and stepping
Great workout

[dspyrido]

Weighted = weight in training. This can include barbells but also includes many other things which can be trained in many ways.

For the internalists who feel weight is not required ...

1. Have you never practiced with a sword, pole, halberd, spear or other implement? If you have then is this not a weight?
2. If you don't use any weight do you never have people pressing on you to test structure, ability to ground, angle and position? If so then is this not weighted training?

Also if you don't believe in weights or feel they somehow block ability then how do you read the following?

Hao Weizhen (1849-1920) From Guangping prefecture, Yongnian county. Due to the family's economical decline he had to give up his studies and do business to support his parents. He was a big man, strong, sincere and upright. He is said to have been able to carry a 50 kg bag in each hand.

Li Yiyu accepted him as a student and he studied diligently for over twenty years achieving skills only second to his teacher. Many times he was the one sent to meet with other boxers who came to test the skills of this strange style that looked rather soft compared to the common styles in the area.

http://web.comhem.se/chineseboxing/zhouzenglin.htm

Throughout the IMA world there are references of the physical training effort that the masters put in. Many used weighted implements to augment their training. They just did not seem to widely publish this in their books but examples of it's use. Many seem to have come to the conclusion that the weighted training was not included because it was not important. I believe it was because they:

1. Did not want to give away their secrets easily.
2. Would be able to better sell something that had a far wider appeal based on philosophy and training loosely and lightly. People like easy and are happy to live with hope that they will become super warriors.

[Bao]

Also if you don't believe in weights or feel they somehow block ability then how do you read the following?

Hao Weizhen (1849-1920) From Guangping prefecture, Yongnian county. Due to the family's economical decline he had to give up his studies and do business to support his parents. He was a big man, strong, sincere and upright. He is said to have been able to carry a 50 kg bag in each hand.

Li Yiyu accepted him as a student and he studied diligently for over twenty years achieving skills only second to his teacher. Many times he was the one sent to meet with other boxers who came to test the skills of this strange style that looked rather soft compared to the common styles in the area.

http://web.comhem.se/chineseboxing/zhouzenglin.htm

Li Deyin studying MA since 8 yrs old wasn't allowed to practice tai chi until high school:

You began training at 8 years old, can you tell us about the nature of your training detailing the progression through your first 12 years?

I was born into a traditional martial arts family. My martial arts teacher was my grandfather Li Yu Lin (disciple of Sun Lu Tang). He was the authority in the family and insisted that all the boys in the family had to practice martial arts regardless of their future career plans. Everyday after dinner, my brothers and I would train at home under grandfather’s supervision. Sometimes we would go to his martial arts school and train at the back of older, adult students.

For the first 4 years, my training mostly focused on Ji Ben Gong (foundation skills) which included kicks, body stretching, splits, handstands and somersaults as well as basic Shaolin training including Shaolin Fist, Shaolin Sabre and Staff etc. My grandfather used to say ‘Children need to get a good foundation in their legs and waist because these skills are difficult to train when you get older.’

When I went to secondary school, my grandfather would ask us to practice Xing Yi Quan which involved daily Zhan Zhuang (pole standing) and Wu Xing Quan (Five Element Fist). This training was repetitive and intensive. We would practice the same movements over and over for more than 20 or 30 repetitions. Grandfather said, ‘The simpler the movement, the more advanced skills can be developed’.

I started formal Taijiquan training before moving to High School. Although I had already learned the pattern of the form, I had to start again from Open Stance in front of my grandfather. Learning progress was at a snail’s pace as he advocated a ‘don’t bite more than you can chew’ method of training. It took me six months to complete the Yang Style (traditional) Taijiquan Form. However, this training method benefited me greatly in later years when I made a last minute decision to enter 1st Beijing University Wushu Competition without any training for 3 years and won a Gold Medal for Taijiquan.

https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/t ... -li-deyin/

Many seem to have come to the conclusion that the weighted training was not included because it was not important. I believe it was because they:

1. Did not want to give away their secrets easily.
2. Would be able to better sell something that had a far wider appeal based on philosophy and training loosely and lightly. People like easy and are happy to live with hope that they will become super warriors.

When Yang Luchan taught officials and upper class people, one must understand that in China, everything that dealt with sweating was considered low-class, something farmers and workers did. In order to appeal as an art of the gentlemen ideal, he had to take everything strenuous away. Yang Cheng Fu continued in this direction to appeal to the public who wanted to do things that the upper class did.

Personally, I believe that strength practice has it's place. But it's not necessary to add strength training to achieve success in Tai Chi. Now when I am 40 and only very young, not very very young anymore, I appreciate low stance form practice, stance practice and ding shi, leg strength is something I consider important for my tai chi. I also try to keep up my over all body strength, but that has very little do do with my tai chi. The problem I see, is that people mix things up too easily. Many can't really understand to separate how Tai Chi works in practice, from what they need for their own over all strength and health.

[Ian]

Weights are just force coming into the structure. Depends on what kind of weight, how you train, and why.

4:00

[windwalker]

It is interesting reading the comments. Anything shown that would support the idea of not using force or strength tends to be challenged here while those things that reinforce the idea tends to be accepted as it accords with most practices.

If one is true then most people already practice internal work in some form or another in all practices, if not then it has to be something else that most do not practice, understand
nor accept until such time as they do.

[willie]

.

[marvin8]

IMO, strength training and form, technique training should be trained separately. In general, train for strength and train for technique but, not at the same time. Modern day training does not train the same muscle every day, allowing muscle building and recovery. Too light of weights is not very productive. Cardiovascular training is more productive, when done separately.

Forms, technique drills, and shadow boxing's primary purpose is not to build muscular strength. Forms, technique drills, and shadow boxing is a time to practice technique, body mechanics, connection, footwork, angles, strategies, etc. In general, most modern day fighters do empty hand (not weighted) shadow boxing.

[RobP3]

Cloudz is going to hate this lol, but whatever you do shouldn't you have the "functional strength" to do it? Being totally soft has it's place, but often so does a mixture of tension and relaxation. If you don't believe that, please come and hit me hard as you can with a totally relaxed fist.

So surely your strength training, which can be worked in all sorts of ways, should relate directly to how you use your strength - unless you have mind powers I suppose....

[Serena]

`

[willie]

.

[Ron Panunto]

[/quote]

Not true. I have been training with weights and various styles of IMA since I was a teenager (now 72) and can say with confidence that they blend well together. When I rack a 150 lb barbell on my shoulders (I weigh 150 also) my intention quickly sets up a skeletal path for the weight to drop through directly to the ground through my heals. I can stand this way indefinitely without stress due to perfect alignment. Same with a bench press. Clear the barbell from its rack, balance it overhead and have your intention align the skeleton from your hands through the bench to ground.

And as far as intention, trying to grind out the last few reps will build it like nothing you have ever done, especially when you don't have a spotter. In my experience, weight training, with proper form, will not adversely effect sensitivity. Don't forget that most of the Chen clan were farmers long before farming became mechanized - they worked their ass' off and became strong doing it. So I'm not a farmer, so I choose resistance training, aerobics and Taiji to stay strong and healthy.[/quote]

Can you see your chi (qi)? If so, what does it look like? When you use the weights, are they affected? Thanks.[/quote]

IMO chi does not exist Serena, so I don't "see" anything.

[Ron Panunto]

It is interesting reading the comments. Anything shown that would support the idea of not using force or strength tends to be challenged here while those things that reinforce the idea tends to be accepted as it accords with most practices.

If one is true then most people already practice internal work in some form or another in all practices, if not then it has to be something else that most do not practice, understand
nor accept until such time as they do.

Since internal work is unification of the body (and mind) to use as little force as necessary to get the job done, then yes, many people already practice internal work - it may not be martially oriented, but it is most definitely internal.

[willie]

.

[Ron Panunto]

Many can't really understand to separate how Tai Chi works in practice, from what they need for their own over all strength and health.

Tai Chi is all about unification, not separation.