Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby shoebox55 on Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:16 pm

Was sparring always incorporated in Tai Chi training? Or was it only a recent development when the realization that solo form work is not enough, that one needs to train against an uncooperative partner? Sanshou comes to mind. If the end product is sanshou, why not just train san shou?

Don't mean to be disrespectful to people who only train just the form, it is hard for me to understand how that alone can train reflexes.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby charles on Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:38 pm

I'm told that Chen style has always included two-person (push hands) practice. Although not sparring, per se, it certainly can train "reflexes", if you chose to train it that way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1L0BzdbVaI
Last edited by charles on Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:08 pm

Don't mean to be disrespectful to people who only train just the form, it is hard for me to understand how that alone can train reflexes.


kinda depends on the type of "reflexes" one is training.
would you say skipping rope does not train reflexes?
If the end product is sanshou, why not just train san shou?

maybe because its not the end product

"First strive to move with awareness for yourself, grasping it within your own body, then naturally you will be able to spot it in the opponent. If on the other hand you try to find it in opponents first, you will probably never find it in yourself. You have to be able to understand this concept in order to be able to identify energies."

"If you want to move with awareness and yet you do not understand sticking, adhering, connecting, and following, it will be beyond your reach, for it is a very subtle skill."
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:44 pm

*FACE PALM*
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby wiesiek on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:25 am

:)

to answer the topic: origin of TJ is in the sparring...
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Strange on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:26 am

15 pages minimum
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:59 am

Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art, and the history of anything that could be called Tai Chi Chuan is an art of combat.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby KEND on Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:50 am

I seem to recall way back a post by ven. Fish on why TCC fighters often seem to have trained in another MA. It got a lot of attention at the time. Push hands is an excellent drill but there appears to be no transitional drills to actual combat. In Hsing Yi I introduced 'slow fighting' which went over spontaneous reactions to attacks and created a tool box of techniques. I understand a version of this is used by some NY TCC practitioners. It is advisable, if you intend to be a long term serious martial artist, to train a minimum of 5 years in ;external MA, get knocked down, spill blood and experience combat first hand.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby windwalker on Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:53 am

Strange wrote:15 pages minimum


na maybe only 10 ;)
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Strange on Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:23 am

windwalker wrote:
Strange wrote:15 pages minimum


na maybe only 10 ;)


ehhh... ok
but if by page 10 some one mentions correctly 知劲 懂劲
then it's going to 15 pages, fair enough? :D
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:46 am

KEND wrote: Push hands is an excellent drill but there appears to be no transitional drills to actual combat.


IME the transition from Push hands to sparring and real fighting comes very natural.

This is from Li Yaxuan, Yang Cheng Fu's very best student. In his writing on Tui Shou, he continuously speaks about how to use tui shou to learn skills for real fighting as well as how to use Tai Chi as an art to deal with fighting, sparring and competition without compromising tai chi principles. He believed that as a tai chi practitioner you should do a lot of sparring.

"...the action can change seamlessly to fighting for real at any moment. This is the most practical approach.
... Whenever you make a move, you must distinguish substantial from insubstantial. But
you are not to make this distinction by using your hands, arms, and shoulders, rather, you
must be able to to distinguish full and empty by means of your waist and your body and by using your spirit power. Even in real fighting or sparring competition, sensing the full/empty distinction is absolutely essential. However, in a free fighting situation, your movements must be instantaneous, crisp, and decisive, applied with an unshakable conviction of absolute victory."


And....

Push hands as taught in the Yang family style is always based on tracking your partner or opponent’s movements in a relaxed, light application of insubstantiality. It never consists of forceful grappling as certain teachers would hold.
.... Just never even slightly violate the principle of no gaps, no resistance. If you depart from this principle you are no longer practicing Taijiquan, you are just bashing each other around pointlessly.
.... And it isn’t only a matter of relaxing and sinking, you must also cultivate extreme sensitivity in your hands. If you don’t follow this teaching, you’ll be like certain practitioners who can only do well when practicing among themselves and can’t apply any real skill against outsiders and strangers from any other school.


He says it all doesn't he? ;)


8-)
Last edited by Bao on Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby willie on Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:14 am

.
Last edited by willie on Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:57 am

Sparring does not teach Taiji's method of fighting. Taiji's way is to close the distance as soon as possible and then stay connected to the opponent until he is defeated. Sparring methods are to maintain separation so that you can release punches and kicks. i.e., kickboxing. Push hands is the preferred method for teaching Taiji's boxing skills. And when I speak of "push hands", I mean free stepping, where punches , kicks, chin na, and takedowns are permitted. So what is the difference? The difference is in always attempting to stick and adhere to the opponent while taking his space away - that is the Taiji way.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby willie on Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:15 am

.
Last edited by willie on Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Sparring Origins

Postby Ron Panunto on Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:13 am

willie wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:Sparring does not teach Taiji's method of fighting. Taiji's way is to close the distance as soon as possible and then stay connected to the opponent until he is defeated. Sparring methods are to maintain separation so that you can release punches and kicks. i.e., kickboxing. Push hands is the preferred method for teaching Taiji's boxing skills. And when I speak of "push hands", I mean free stepping, where punches , kicks, chin na, and takedowns are permitted. So what is the difference? The difference is in always attempting to stick and adhere to the opponent while taking his space away - that is the Taiji way.


what about creating space to fire the bow?


You still don't separate. You should be able to release your bow while still in close contact with the opponent - like the no-inch punch or shoulder strike.
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