Tai Chi Sparring Origins

[willie]

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[Ron Panunto]

There is a tendency for TCC fighters to try and line up the opponent for a particular technique, it doesn't work in a free flowing situation

This goes against all Taiji theory. You must give up yourself to follow the opponent.

That is true Ron. But you can still attack or connect with him to provoke a reaction. If he doesn't give something to follow, create something to follow. I wrote a blog post about this:

Can you attack with Tai Chi?

Tai Chi is mostly considered a solely defensive art based on response. A common question from tai chi practitioners, especially from beginners is: Can you attack with Tai chi? Sadly there’s a common misconception about attacking or doing things without the attacker first initializing an attack. Even quite well known teachers say things like that you must wait for an attack and if that your opponent doesn’t do anything you can only wait. But attacking actually does not go against Tai chi principles.

Yes, you must know what to follow. But there is not only arms and legs to worry about. Even if he is not lunging out attacks, there’s is still a body to follow and adjust to. Controlling distance and angle to the opponent is what you always need to do. Always try to be in a superior position. Somewhere in a space relationship to you where he does not want to be.

And even more important, there’s is the opponent’s Yi (intent) to worry about. If you let him focus his Yi steadily on you is like letting him aim at you with a target. Keep off his favorite distance, try adjust the angles. Try to confuse him, shift distances or use any way to detach his line of intent.

Where his mind is empty or at that spot he pays no attention to, there is yin. You can fill up this spot with yang, i.e. attack. There is nothing wrong with this.

Then, if you attack him, he must move or be moved. When moves, if he defend or counter, what ever he does, now there’s physical movement to follow. He has moved and given you something you can attach your hands and tingjin (following skill) to.

The classics says: “If my opponent moves slightly, I move first.” As soon as he does anything, move in and be there first. Follow his reactions and let his movements defeat himself.

Yes, that is true Bao. When I made my comment I was assuming that the bridge had already been built. One of my teachers used to say "if he won't engage, then give him a little trouble" (an offensive move).

[Bao]

One of my teachers used to say "if he won't engage, then give him a little trouble"

Good way to express it. I liked that one.

[shoebox55]

kinda depends on the type of "reflexes" one is training.
would you say skipping rope does not train reflexes?
[quote][/quote]

By reflexes, I think I used the wrong word. Awareness or reading what the other person is going to do at full speed. I don't know how that can be developed without partner work.

[shoebox55]

Sparring does not teach Taiji's method of fighting. Taiji's way is to close the distance as soon as possible and then stay connected to the opponent until he is defeated. And when I speak of "push hands", I mean free stepping, where punches , kicks, chin na, and takedowns are permitted. So what is the difference? The difference is in always attempting to stick and adhere to the opponent while taking his space away - that is the Taiji way.

Thanks for this comment. How does this look like while not doing push hands? Even for demonstration purposes, especially bridge, stick and adhere.

[KEND]

Relating to what Ron said. What he describes as push hands would be the intermediate step between 'push hands' as we usually see it with stepping, no striking, no kicking. This I call 'slow fighting' because I initially train it slowly, then as the flow becomes natural, faster and closer to fighting. I probably didn't make it clear but after the initial move you have already 'bridged ' and are responding to opponents reactions. The fighting distance in IMA is from slightly under arm's length to bodies in contact.
IMA fighting is essentially two or three moves to disable by striking or to control an opponent, it is not circling around throwing kicks or punches [it is in fact closer to wrestling than external MA], The change in 'mind' is one of the reasons it is hard to learn and master
As I have suggested previously, if you are serious do minimum of 5 years external before attempting IMA including conditioning, full contact fighting etc

[marvin8]

Sparring does not teach Taiji's method of fighting. Taiji's way is to close the distance as soon as possible and then stay connected to the opponent until he is defeated. And when I speak of "push hands", I mean free stepping, where punches , kicks, chin na, and takedowns are permitted. So what is the difference? The difference is in always attempting to stick and adhere to the opponent while taking his space away - that is the Taiji way.

Thanks for this comment. How does this look like while not doing push hands? Even for demonstration purposes, especially bridge, stick and adhere.

I disagree with, "Sparring does not teach Taiji's method of fighting." The strategy is not exclusive to taiji. I created a post that is IMO similar to what Ron describes. In the thread IMO, there are videos of Jon Jones and Demetrius Johnson demonstrating stick, adhere and taking space away, starting from long range: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24927

[shoebox55]

my understanding from this thread is that push hands and applications is the origins of sparring... the free stepping in push hands with punches, etc. was that from the beginning?

Has these kind of match ups been from the beginning, same with lei tei fights....and the method to train for these fights is no different from what is said earlier, push hands and applications?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZhdSuuEZ0

[willie]

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[shoebox55]

Hi Willie,

It could've been Yang, WU, etc it was one of the first videos that showed up that I saw Tai Chi in the ring. I'm trying to learn more of the Tai Chi syllabus after forms, and what has always been there and what hasn't and why.

Thanks for your comment. So you think they are training K-1? In order to fight in the ring you have to train the same way as K-1 fighters? What is the reasoning behind this, and why not just applications and push hands?

[willie]

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[shoebox55]

Thanks Willie. Just to be clear, I'm asking why have to use K1 training in addition rather than just rely on push hands and applications when in the ring. I think you understand what I was trying to say because you mention steep learning curve.

Are you saying that since it takes too long to learn applications and push hands that K1 training has to be done otherwise their training wouldn't suffice in the ring?

[willie]

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[shoebox55]

By media what do you mean?

[willie]

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