Did Tai Chi Fail?

[Serena]

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[MaartenSFS]

Not every boxer is as good as Ali. Is it still boxing?

[willie]

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[amor]

This raises a side issue, which is, how much needs to be passed down before a person has all the tools they need to develop their art on their own? Most people in the villages were illiterate, or at best literate but not lifelong scholars. This is not a difficult thing to learn or pick up on, once it is explained and taught simply it is a simple matter to simply do the work and develop certain skills. This is the real problem, people work 8 hrs a day then watch tv 4 hrs a day and spend the rest of the time sleeping, taking a bath, driving to work and so forth. That's the problem, really. People simply do not train more than 1-2 hrs a day, the best of the best maybe 4 to 5, six? If you're a professional sure maybe you spend six hours a day training, but now we are talking about a group of people who are sifu class and are basically paid to train, this is not the normal class of people is it?

I dont think its lack of dedication, rather its the current hectic lifestyle and access to competent teachers. People back in the old days had more free time with non costly access to the teacher. As I said before, lock me up in a temple or whatever and force me to do 8hrs a day and I'll have this cracked, but with the current lifestyle, I'll be lucky.

[willie]

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[charles]

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[Bao]

This raises a side issue, which is, how much needs to be passed down before a person has all the tools they need to develop their art on their own?

It's not just about passing down. There's a saying in China that every generation must become better than the last one. There must be a progress, the arts must develop with every new generation. My Chinese tai chi teacher said that he never became as good as his teacher. He had the responsibility to become even better, so he felt that he had failed his teacher.

I think that there's something comforting in this attitude. Anyone with diligent practice can not only become a master, but surpass his teachers. This is the traditional Chinese view. It's funny how different this is from the west where we think that someone must be blessed with a certain "gift" or talent. Chinese tradition says screw talent, without enough time and effort it ain't mean a shit. I like the Chinese view.

[willie]

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[Bao]

You want to explain why you chose to write this?

No.

[charles]

It's not just about passing down...

Good points. Even with good teaching, one still has to do the work and "own" the material.

[Wanderingdragon]

Let's consider Wang Xiangzhai

"Also, saying he is friends with Yang Shao Hou and Yang Cheng Fu, and calling them masters of “original taijiquan”, he then goes on to harshly criticize “taijiquan”, describing and forecasting the same sad martial-less state it occupies today for the most part (apparently it’s been in a sad state for a lot longer than I thought):

As for dealing with an enemy in a fight, against a master-hand, please do not even consider it, if the adversary is not stiff and sluggish, even the famous masters of this boxing have no chance to apply their skills. These abuses are so big that ‘Taijiquan’ might soon become just a mere form comparable to a chess manual. For the last twenty years, most people who have studied this boxing have not been able to differentiate right and wrong, even if someone has been able to differentiate them, he has not been capable of putting it into practice. As for common students, most of them use their ears instead of their eyes.

So ruined is this boxing that it has become useless, this is really deplorable. I wish that the powerful members of this school would promptly and strictly clean it up, and attempt to develop it in the future. When the day of success comes, they will be held as the bosom friends of all the boxing fans. I dare to say that I understand ‘Taijiquan’ deeply, those who do not agree, can notify me or lay the blame on me, only the wise onees might understand. At the same time, I suppose those who have really gained something in their study of ‘Taijiquan’, when they read this, they will nod in agreement and cannot help laughing."

[Steve Rowe]

My thoughts are that the main families and lineages were incapable of controlling the spread of the art as they didn't understand how to run an international organisation. At every turn enthusiastic students would find it extremely hard to deal with things like:
Xenophobia
Discipleships
Certification
Convoluted culture
Huge expenses
Complicated business relationships
and family politics.

It's very hard to have loyalty towards people that are incapable of structuring an organisation.

[willie]

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[Hecubus]

I think the fact that nearly everyone in a conversation among serious martial artists like this seems to have some guy who is their yardstick for that skill level says differently. Otherwise you'd have no yardstick to measure by, and wouldn't be complaining that all of your arts are watered down. You'd be complaining that there isn't anyone better than you are, busy being "the man", or just busy being ignorant.

I've met several people personally who demonstrate the higher level body skills (although some in other arts) but only "several" after decades, and even then through serendipity (the first time). There never were "thousands" of people as good as the Yang family, Chen Fake, etc. in the art at one time -- it's just more popular now, but the skills are still as hard as ever to learn. There is a reason the founder of Daitoryu told his (real) students to find only "one or two" people to transmit the art to. Even if you teach openly to everyone you'll be lucky to find more than one or two students who have the ability, the commitment and the free time to learn the body methods let alone the fighting strategies of a system as complex as this one. The secrets hide themselves.

[klonk]

I am beginning to harbor the awful surmise that

the level of attainment spoken of in the classics

was not attained. It was hyperbole aimed at an ideal. It was the bullseye not the actual firing score.

Well, gang, you know the game by now. Prove Klonk wrong. I would be delighted to be mistaken, but I have to see how and why.