Did Tai Chi Fail?

[Bao]

It will depend on the relative skill of the opponents, and luck.

Exactly.

[marvin8]

"What I would most be interested in doing is working with someone who is good at groundfighting at the push hands drill, and studying the methods by which they approach their shoot from the push hands position. I speculate that if you work that into your TCC you should never have to go to the ground.

Jon Jones is not a "tai chi" fighter. However, it shows how a stand up fighter defeated an Olympic wrestler in a sport fight, in real time, managing non-cooperative energies (e.g., preventing wrestler's shoot). The octagon cage does help restrict certain moves, though.

From previous thread, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24927:

Sticking like that can be very useful for negating a grappler that wants to clinch. If you watch this breakdown of Jon Jones vs Cormier you can see Jones using very similar hand fighting to that displayed in the Tai Chi clips to negate Cormier - see around 2.50 mark. Combined with striking, obviously.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhWfSj5_CuQ

Cormier discusses what went wrong and what he needs to do, next time, to defeat Jon Jones.

Published on Jun 14, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxJNdD53cI

[RobP3]

So now we are using Master Ken and MMA videos and some casual racism to "defend" Tai Chi???

[Rabbit]

But John Jones is a wrestler

[ambulocetus]

I don't post much because I tend to learn more with my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. I was always taught that Martial Arts begins and ends with courtesy. I think certain people in this thread need to realize that ones manners reflects back to ones teacher. There is more than one hole in the training of martial arts in the west, but at least one of them can be filled by studying Confucius

[RobP3]

I don't post much because I tend to learn more with my eyes and ears open and my mouth shut. I was always taught that Martial Arts begins and ends with courtesy. I think certain people in this thread need to realize that ones manners reflects back to ones teacher. There is more than one hole in the training of martial arts in the west, but at least one of them can be filled by studying Confucius

I'm not sure to whom you refer, but courtesy goes both ways. It is right and proper to study all aspects of martial arts, but personally I feel there are enough "western" equivalents to Confucius to fill any gaps. I don't think any culture has the sole ownership on courtesy, good manners, bad manners or anything else

[marvin8]

But John Jones is a wrestler

I'am not understanding your comment.

The video shows Jon Jones taking away Cormier’s higher level wrestling game (strengths). Jones has a background in wrestling, too. However, he is able to fight in all ranges.

Serena mentioned push hands drills to deal with a wrestler’s shoot. The video shows Jones dealing with Cormier’s leg shooting. It’s an example in real time with a non-compliant opponent, that’s why I referred to it: At :28, “How to Stop Cormier’s single leg?” Switch to southpaw. “How to Stop Cormier in close range and clinch?” Hand fight. Also, Jones controls the distance by using various attacks (e,g, kicks, punches, elbows, etc.).

It is not tai chi or push hands. However, someone might be creative and create push hand drills that include working on switching lead foot and defending against underhooks and strikes by controlling the hands and controlling distance.

[dspyrido]

(Note: this is all from a martial perspective.)

There is a lack of access to good TC. IMO the reason for this is because most people in TC are focusing on the wrong place. They seem to like to focus in on what they cannot prove is there. Some even revert to using mind games & peer pressure to talk their way out of why it can or cant work. IMO if after 10 years of practise you can't proove the merit of something against another human being then (martially speaking) it is an absolute waste of time.

The few who I have known that could apply TC practised a shit load of two man drills, chin-na & striking. Some also used weights. They had "kung fu" & the form that they drilled was something they did in parks to continue the training when they were not drilling. These guys could apply what they knew because they:

- Do not try to describe "the chi". Not because they don't know what it is but because they know that it is not the thing to concentrate on. They know the effects good training has on it so it is more important to get on with the training.
- They care about the doing exercises that invigorate a person & that will boost their ability in fighting. They now that it must help from a health perspective so they don't need to talk about it from a mystical perspective.
- When it came to applying what they could do it was always based on awarenes of movement & about having maximised use of the bodyweight, overwhelming power & perfect timing+placement. What they could do they could describe & how it worked.

And they all have crossed trained (granted in cmas) & have tested themselves against others.

The other thing. They all seem to know how to wrestle.

So here is the answer to the whole Jon Jones vs. ground stuff.

Firstly - I know many BJJ'ers at 5 yrs+ levels who are not very good at the real middle ground between striking & the ground. It's called wrestling. They have spent a lot of time on the mat with opponents who are abosulely happy to join them there. The smart BJJ'ers have either cross trained in a throwing/wrestling art or have been lucky enough to train with someone who gets how to throw & wrestle (which is getting more and more rarer). Also if you don't think the chinese had any ground fighting skills then you are mistaken. They do. It's just not a common thing to find but it is there & by this I don't mean guys who can do break dancing moves in forms. I am talking about moves that are the equivalent to modern day sambo take downs & submissions.

Secondly - if you want to keep off the ground then you need to wrestle to practise avoiding being taken down. To anyone who says TC does not contain wrestling moves I suggest you look a lot more closely at the form.

Also to those thinking it's only about push hands I suggest you reflect on the people who when they founded these styles did not care about tradition. None existed. They cared about winning & they drilled to win. Do you think they only did push hands especially when you consider that shua jiouw has been around for thousands of years? Or where they actually well versed in what we would call shua jiow yet they placed a focus on refining it into push hands as a supplementary excercise?

Lastly - if you think you will learn to handle another human's weight based on NOT training with a person who is putting weight on you then you are kidding yourself. The founders of these arts practised against other people & would also use weights (in forms of stone balls & many other contraptions).

If you want to rediscover TC then either find someone who can turn you into a human preztel (ie good TC) or go back to mother of all IMA & explore shuaijiow (or other wrestling/throwing art). You will see it has many similar moves that are being openly trained against other people & exist in the forms. At a minimum it will give focus to the movements of the forms & get the thinking going about what the use of a move is. When you are comfortable with the grappling then add striking & see how that goes.

Along the way you might want to learn how to operate on the ground. You don't have to be an expert of submitting someone from guard or know 1000 ways to wrap a gi around someone but if you know enough then you will be a nightmare for anyone fixated on the ground. Especially when you add good old ground & pound to the striking & take down capability.

[Serena]

Sheesh. You americans can never learn Chinese kung fu.

[Bao]

Good post Dspyrido, good points.

There is a lack of access to good TC

I would say there's a lack of Interest and hard to get good students.

Just imho.

[RobP3]

Good post Dspyrido, good points.

There is a lack of access to good TC

I would say there's a lack of Interest and hard to get good students.

Just imho.

+1

[RobP3]

Sheesh. You americans can never learn Chinese kung fu.

Wasn't it originally from India?

[willie]

Sheesh. You americans can never learn Chinese kung fu.

No, there are some who are very good.

[Activeghost]

No one can "learn" gong fu. Its earned, and belongs to you, not someone else. That's the whole point of the concept. Lol.

[wiesiek]

trunk, two legs and hands, + head /most important /
it`s all what you need to have it .
race or nationality has nothing to do with it
just
your own dreams visualizations