How to practice Tai Chi applications

[yeniseri]

Jose gets what I'm saying Bao - you are just describing the requirements to make any martial art work, to me at least. The good people in any martial art are relaxed, fluid with a high degree of body awaerness. Top MT guys have 100% more body coordination than most for example. In MMA Conor McGregor, Steven Thompson, Dmitrius Johnson are really fluid and relaxed. These guys are competing at a level way beyond what you find in a tai chi class and still doing it.

So, my question would have to come back to - what makes the "tai chi" part of "tai chi applications"? I can't see it in what you've written so far.

Great points!
When I see an alleged tai chi punch or a tai chi kick, then a zombie punch isn't too far behind.

[Bao]

Bao, interesting article, but I ask,

How do you know with what motion to most effectively turn on and off a light switch?

How do you open your car door handle?

Why is it that you always push in the right direction and not in the wrong direction?

I like this reply of yours.

I understand what you say, I'll try to verbalize my thoughts better and return soon.

[Bao]

Then why don't they have systems to teach this? Why don't students practically and methodogically practice this? I am speaking about internal awareness, not the awareness about how you do a certain technique externally.

I dont know the name, but i think i almost know the name of the fallacy. You see, you just made a sweeping statement right there and generalized. You also assumed that what you have seen as karate, or any other martial art, is absolutely everything that there is. On the heels of that one, you also assume automatically that these other arts are "external", which right there is just a label that does not define a martial art, but has to do with how the martial art is trained (any art can be external or internal). Any martial art can have awareness. You are simply putting taiji application on a pedestal, using your limited (not because its lacking, but because its not absolute) experience in other martial arts as a measuring stick to stereotype.

Your point still has value, if argued simply as how to properly apply taiji, without trying to compare it with straw man versions of how other martial arts work, and how they dont have the goods because you have not seen them taught or methodically practiced.

You are correct that I do generalize. But I don't compare arts with values. I don't rank them. What I try to say is some things that are important for Tai Chi practice. I don't care about other arts.

[jaime_g]

The study of applications is more o less the same in all arts. If you are a decent martial artist and not a total beginner, you already know enough applications to carry a fight. The important point IMO is what is behind the application. Does your taiji punch feel just like your karate friend punch? Then his karate is very unusual or your taiji very usual Same for throwing. If you feel like everybody else, your taiji is very poor, I don't care if your applications are top notch, you are just doing clever fighting, not internals.

[Bao]

Any martial art can have awareness.

Of course they can. But there are different roads. Hakka arts develop a tremendous awareness through breath and sound work. What Tai Chi have can not be compared to White Crane or Hunggar in this respect. But Tai Chi still teach breathing. Yes, we can actually breath as well.

They can also be very soft. But again, the roads are different.

You are simply putting taiji application on a pedestal, using your limited (not because its lacking, but because its not absolute) experience in other martial arts as a measuring stick to stereotype.

No, I am not. You are making an unfair statement. But I have a very strong picture about what are good martial arts and good martial arts practice, regardless it's Tai Chi, Karate or Jujutsu. Most of Tai Chi is ridiculous. How could I generalize Tai Chi to be better than something else? As I said. I only write about my own ideals and what I believe is important.

[Bao]

Jose gets what I'm saying Bao - you are just describing the requirements to make any martial art work, to me at least. The good people in any martial art are relaxed, fluid with a high degree of body awaerness. Top MT guys have 100% more body coordination than most for example. In MMA Conor McGregor, Steven Thompson, Dmitrius Johnson are really fluid and relaxed. These guys are competing at a level way beyond what you find in a tai chi class and still doing it.

So, my question would have to come back to - what makes the "tai chi" part of "tai chi applications"? I can't see it in what you've written so far.

Again, I was writing about the practice, not the outcome. The thread was called "how to practice..." How other people act or behave certain times is not important.

"The good people in any martial art are relaxed, fluid with a high degree of body awaerness."

"Having a high degree of body awareness" is not the same as practicing consciously to develop a high degree of body awareness. Some people only practice on making their technique work, a few others practice on how their body feels when they practice an application. IMHO, there is a difference here. I really don't care if you can't understand that there's a difference of focus in different artists practice.

[Bao]

The study of applications is more o less the same in all arts.

I don't agree. If you use the body methods that Dan have taught you when you study applications, you practice applications differently than 99,99% of the other martial artists in this world.

If you focus on what's inside and not on what's the outside, you still practice applications differently than at least 95% of the other martial artists in this world.

The important point IMO is what is behind the application. Does your taiji punch feel just like your karate friend punch? Then his karate is very unusual or your taiji very usual Same for throwing. If you feel like everybody else, your taiji is very poor, I don't care if your applications are top notch, you are just doing clever fighting, not internals.

Agreed. But it's still about the practice to get there.

[marvin8]

The study of applications is more o less the same in all arts.

I don't agree. If you use the body methods that Dan have taught you when you study applications, you practice applications differently than 99,99% of the other martial artists in this world.

If you focus on what's inside and not on what's the outside, you still practice applications differently than at least 95% of the other martial artists in this world.

Your article mentions adjusting distance and angle, sticking, and balance are important details. However IMO, the article does not explain how to practice to build and apply these skills against a non-compliant opponent.

There are various videos where tai chi players are fighting against a non-compliant opponent. However, they show a lack of controlling distance, angle and sticking. Do you suggest certain methods, drills, push hands, or sparring to help develop these skills?

[rojcewiczj]

In my experience it is the training of connection which typifies the internal arts. Meaning, the body is used as a connection between the opponent and the ground/wall/thing which is more solid than you. The goal is for the opponent to connect to that more solid thing through you and for your own strength to then be applied like a spring. Over time training this connection creates quite different results than a method focused purely on developing your bodies ability to produce force. Of course when one strike this connection can be realized on contact. Another issue is when moving downwards, how can a connection be present without a ceiling to push upwards on? Well, thankfully the pull of gravity acts constantly as a downward connection. Attending JiuJitsu classes I've often found this downward gravity connection to be heavily emphasized. The issue seems to be that most martial arts training pushes the body to throw forward to create more force, but, in doing so, disconnects from the root. On arrival of force, disconnected forces pass immediately into nothing, while a connected force is constantly rebounding, moving through the body. A trick I use, is to replace the intent of trying to travel somewhere in space, with the intent of stretching from one to the other, from the ground to the opponent. The foot finds the ground, my hand finds the opponent, I use all my strength to create the strongest spring. You need to use all your strenght so that the opponent really gets connected to the ground, so your strength is put to good use. When the connection works it feels like no force was needed, but of course force/strength really is needed.

[Serena]

In my experience it is the training of connection which typifies the internal arts. Meaning, the body is used as a connection between the opponent and the ground/wall/thing which is more solid than you. The goal is for the opponent to connect to that more solid thing through you and for your own strength to then be applied like a spring. Over time training this connection creates quite different results than a method focused purely on developing your bodies ability to produce force. Of course when one strike this connection can be realized on contact. Another issue is when moving downwards, how can a connection be present without a ceiling to push upwards on? Well, thankfully the pull of gravity acts constantly as a downward connection. Attending JiuJitsu classes I've often found this downward gravity connection to be heavily emphasized. The issue seems to be that most martial arts training pushes the body to throw forward to create more force, but, in doing so, disconnects from the root. On arrival of force, disconnected forces pass immediately into nothing, while a connected force is constantly rebounding, moving through the body. A trick I use, is to replace the intent of trying to travel somewhere in space, with the intent of stretching from one to the other, from the ground to the opponent. The foot finds the ground, my hand finds the opponent, I use all my strength to create the strongest spring. You need to use all your strenght so that the opponent really gets connected to the ground, so your strength is put to good use. When the connection works it feels like no force was needed, but of course force/strength really is needed.

In tai chi this is called 'great leaning force'.

[Bao]

.There are various videos where tai chi players are fighting against a non-compliant opponent. However, they show a lack of controlling distance, angle and sticking.

Yes they do.

Do you suggest certain methods, drills, push hands, or sparring to help develop these skills?

This is partly a different topic and I don't have the answer to what works for everyone. I can only base my answer on own experience. Some could be learned through applications practice, some of it through free push hands, sparring and competition fighting.

There are also different exercises like what the PTTC calls "seven star" footwork patterns, attacking and defensive drills with footwork. We have the same kind of exercises in my Yang lineage, but we focus more on sticking and timing, not just as a technical drill.

For sticking, I like exercises practicing defending from random striking (like boxing punches and similar) with a partner, where the defender is soft and following, and the attacker strike with force and speed in a controlled manner. Practicing these things with stylists from other arts is also good, preferably bigger and heavier. Then you are more or less forced to relax and use timing, as pure strength will be outmatched.

[Bao]

Bao, interesting article, but I ask,

How do you know with what motion to most effectively turn on and off a light switch?

How do you open your car door handle?

Why is it that you always push in the right direction and not in the wrong direction?

I like this reply of yours.

I understand what you say, I'll try to verbalize my thoughts better and return soon.

Okay, first let's put it this way...

In how many different ways can you throw a straight lead?
In how many ways could you perform a side kick?

And to Mr Graham...

If a ballerina and a hip hop dancer can achieve the same level of awareness or body control, could a hip hop dancer dance ballet just as good as a ballerina (if the hip hop dancer never studied ballet. Haven't their different skills and difference of what they could do something with their very different background and methods of practice? But I guess you'll state that you see no difference. Both can dance, so what? ... Right?

Of course there's a difference of skill sets between different styles. I don't understand why people here regard all TCMA as similar. My opinion is that they are very different and build very different skill sets. However at some points, different skill sets often meet.

[Serena]

In how many different ways can you throw a straight lead?
In how many ways could you perform a side kick?

You can perform them in any number of ways, but each one of them will be wrong because you are performing them, and not allowing them to happen as a natural result of the physics of the universe.

When you throw a baseball versus throwing a straight lead, or when you kick a soccer ball versus performing a side kick, the ball itself (which is just an extension of your body) has the unique property of taking the path of least time.

This occurs because the ball follows the properties of nature to reach it's goal.

If you do not impose your own concept on the movements, (which includes your physical characteristics) on any part (the path of motion, yourself, or your opponent) then your body would also follow the path of least time, and then you will move second but arrive first. This is giving yourself up to follow the opponent, this is no movement may be uncomfortable and without breaks or starts and stops. It is the celestial teacher who you must be grateful to.

Secondly, if this is your skill, call it tie, stick, then the application is already complete. You have by definition already sought out the weakness and exposed it, it now becomes a trivial matter to push on the weakness, to flip the light switch on or off so to speak, and in most cases you will have ample time to do it at your leisure because your opponent will be at the end of his rope. You could also do it along the way, which is the true meaning of "at the first touch, the true skill is revealed". It isn't a strange thing at all, it is just what you said -- sticking, but not understood well by outsiders. Because you cannot stick without the requisite peng and lu skills, which comes from the real mechanism of Tai Chi, which is often not found in many "tai chi" arts, but replaced with other mechanics. That is why they are so far off, cannot agree, and will never get the real tai chi skill.

Not that there is anything wrong with the other internal arts, but you cannot fit a square peg in a round hole. For the record I also love to practice xingyiquan and have converted many tai chi movements into xingyi-style drills and back-converted xingyi into my form for amusement. But it requires gutting the mechanics and a clear understanding of why and when. You cannot just put an eagle claw muscle grab into tai chi, there is no point to doing this.

SO getting back to what tai chi is, at least what it is supposed to be, the answer on that side is, there is either one way, or no way. The one way is if you are doing it, but the truth is that there is no way, because applications like throwing a straight lead or a side kick never occur in taijiquan. What's the point? If you have tie, you have everything.

Some other people mentioned entering skill, Entering is easy to practice, you can see some old masters showing how to do entering at push hands practice, at a touch their opponents go flying. But they were not in a random position at the touch, they were in the proper position already. That's the external mechanical way of explaining it, good enough to make into a smaller circle.

[GrahamB]

Bao,

You're just hiding behind nonsensical examples now. You haven't described anything that makes anything "tai chi". Posting lots and long but talking on a very superficial level about body awareness doesn't cut it for me I'm sorry.

What sort of body movement is required, for example? That's probably where I'd start. Then after that basic Jin. But those two things alone would be a massive undertaking to describe in full. And then you'd probably not get it all down right. I find the more I know the more I find I know I don't know! I probably wouldn't attempt it...

[BruceP]

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