Xingyiquan Questions..

[MaartenSFS]

1） Has anyone here done Xingyiquan and Xinyiliuhequan? I feel like the ten and twelve animals of both systems are just random, effective techniques thrown together into nice-sounding groups. I don't feel like they are the heart of the systems at all. There are some main ones and the rest are just kind of there if you want them. Hupu, Maoxilian and others are common to both systems. I probably have just another year to study here and I'm wondering if I should stick to Wuxingquan and several short forms like Wuxing Lianhuan and Wuhuapao, plus whatever Gongli exercises I can learn including hitting things, Xingyi Tuishou etc. Then adding several of the animals I like if they are different enough from Xinyiliuhequan to combine with the ones I already learned from that system. Thoughts?

2) As it seems that things in China are never structured, can anyone tell me what the overall curriculum looks like beyond the Wuxingquan, Wuxing Lianhuan, Shi'erxing progression? What sort of Gongli exercises did you learn? Did you train Fajin with a spear? How many little partnered forms like Wuhuapao did you learn? It seems to me that if I don't learn the dozens of weapons forms that, since I'm not starting from zero, it shouldn't take years to learn this system, just years to master it. Thoughts?

[jaime_g]

I think that a very interesting thing for you would be to learn xingyi's bazigong, eight words skills. Very practical stuff for sparring, good link and expanding of elements and animals.

[Ozguorui]

XingYi = Spear,learn the Wu Xing with Spear
12 Animals = variations on the Wu Xing - e.g 劈拳：龙形、虎形、鹰形、猴形、鸡形
Don't worry about forms, forms are just for demos

[Strange]

some ppl say that
前手打人 后手着 才算是形意

[MaartenSFS]

I think that a very interesting thing for you would be to learn xingyi's bazigong, eight words skills. Very practical stuff for sparring, good link and expanding of elements and animals.

Is it written "八字功"? I'll ask him about it tomorrow.

[edededed]

I've never learned any xinyiliuhequan, so I'm curious as to how you compare the xingyiquan you are learning now with the xinyiliuhequan you learned before. I am not sure that maoxilian, etc. will be the same as what you did in xinyiliuhequan, but I guess that hupu looks somewhat similar? I don't know if the 10 animals of xinyiliuhequan and the 12 animals of xingyiquan are related, though (at least they seem to be quite different in content).

Most xingyiquan schools seem to treat the wuxingquan as kind of basic training, and the 12 animals are more like variations that build up from the wuxingquan.

- I definitely think you should spend lots of time on the gongli exercises, and the wuxingquan.
- Gongli exercises depend on the xingyi school, it seems. Whatever you are learning sounds good.
- Curriculum again depends on the school, but might be something like santishi (standing exercises), gongli/neigong exercises, wuxingquan (variations), forms (wuxinglianhuan, bashi, siba, zashichui, etc.), shierxing, partner training/forms, special skills, etc. The order is not always the same (especially for forms), but will depend on your teacher. Some schools also have different versions of the same skills (e.g. wuxingquan normal, flowing, and running).
- There are many partner forms, from short to long (wuhuapao is on the short side). There are lots of them, but most are fairly simple (sanshoupao, wuxingpao, etc.). Wuxingpao, AKA wuxingxiangke, is very common and almost all schools will teach this one. Long partner forms including anshenpao, jiutaohuan, etc.
- I agree that if you are practicing hard and your teacher is teaching you at the right pace, you should not need years and years to learn the system. (Even if you do learn the weapons, I think.)

[MaartenSFS]

XingYi = Spear,learn the Wu Xing with Spear
12 Animals = variations on the Wu Xing - e.g 劈拳：龙形、虎形、鹰形、猴形、鸡形
Don't worry about forms, forms are just for demos

Do you think the animals are necessary if you already learned other arts with similar techniques?
I just want one or two short forms for fun, demos etc.
He's teaching me a two-man short staff form for after the unarmed training. I really like it so far. Wuhuapao and the staff form are so much better than the silly two-person Taiji forms and train Tingjin all the same (especially Wuhuapao).

[MaartenSFS]

some ppl say that
前手打人 后手着 才算是形意

That makes sense to me from what I've seen.

[edededed]

Bazigong = your characters are correct.

All xingyiquan branches should have the same understanding (as 8 principles in the quanpu), but the bazigong taught as forms (and a long form linked together) was, in my understanding, developed later on, so your branch may or may not have it (but I would not say that it is crucial - yours will have its own preserved material instead).

It may have it anyway, since xingyiquan branches did often share with each other, though.

[MaartenSFS]

I've never learned any xinyiliuhequan, so I'm curious as to how you compare the xingyiquan you are learning now with the xinyiliuhequan you learned before. I am not sure that maoxilian, etc. will be the same as what you did in xinyiliuhequan, but I guess that hupu looks somewhat similar? I don't know if the 10 animals of xinyiliuhequan and the 12 animals of xingyiquan are related, though (at least they seem to be quite different in content).

Most xingyiquan schools seem to treat the wuxingquan as kind of basic training, and the 12 animals are more like variations that build up from the wuxingquan.

- I definitely think you should spend lots of time on the gongli exercises, and the wuxingquan.
- Gongli exercises depend on the xingyi school, it seems. Whatever you are learning sounds good.
- Curriculum again depends on the school, but might be something like santishi (standing exercises), gongli/neigong exercises, wuxingquan (variations), forms (wuxinglianhuan, bashi, siba, zashichui, etc.), shierxing, partner training/forms, special skills, etc. The order is not always the same (especially for forms), but will depend on your teacher. Some schools also have different versions of the same skills (e.g. wuxingquan normal, flowing, and running).
- There are many partner forms, from short to long (wuhuapao is on the short side). There are lots of them, but most are fairly simple (sanshoupao, wuxingpao, etc.). Wuxingpao, AKA wuxingxiangke, is very common and almost all schools will teach this one. Long partner forms including anshenpao, jiutaohuan, etc.
- I agree that if you are practicing hard and your teacher is teaching you at the right pace, you should not need years and years to learn the system. (Even if you do learn the weapons, I think.)

Some great advice there! Gratitude!

So far the relation is obvious, but the curriculum is very different. In Xinyiliuhequan there is no Wuxingquan. You begin by doing Caijibu (chicken "stomp" step) and learn several hand techniques. The body is always turned to the side so that the feet, knees, hips, elbows, shoulders and head all face towards the enemy. You then go straight into Shidaxing, ten animals, and learn another step or two and how to turn when you get to the end of the line. Basically you are doing that bloody Caijibu all day long and that's where the power comes from. Then there is one very short form called Sibachui.

Although very effective, what I didn't like about it was that it was exhausting and not very fun. Didn't like the form either. Have I mentioned that it's effective? Some of the movements are badarse but others I have seen done better in other arts. If you get a chance to learn some try to pick up some of the ones that aren't in Xingyiquan at all.

From what I've seen so far there is not a heavy emphasis on Santishi in Wu Shifu's Xingyiquan (THANK GOD). Instead of Caijibu the focus is on Houzuobu (Back sitting step, which is a moving Santishi). There is more sticking to your opponent and developing Tingjin (XYLHQ just plows through your opponent). There just seems to be a lot more to do, some variation. I just like how it feels.

Ah yes, Sanshoupao. I saw it yesterday. I think he's going to teach me that tomorrow. Would have done it today if it didn't rain so hard..

Of all the forms you mentioned, which would you say are most important? I think that things started out simple and more was added over time.. I like the idea of lots of short forms to keep me busy.

[MaartenSFS]

Bazigong = your characters are correct.

All xingyiquan branches should have the same understanding (as 8 principles in the quanpu), but the bazigong taught as forms (and a long form linked together) was, in my understanding, developed later on, so your branch may or may not have it (but I would not say that it is crucial - yours will have its own preserved material instead).

It may have it anyway, since xingyiquan branches did often share with each other, though.

I've got a lot of questions for him tomorrow... Or I'll slowly get it out of him this week. I don't want him to think that I'm too eager to get to the next part! I just want some idea of what I need to learn so that I can set goals for myself.

[edededed]

Hi again Interesting about xinyiliuhequan, I did see some people practice the caijibu and also the swinging shoulders thing. There are stepping drills in xingyiquan, too, but I never myself learned anything like the shoulders swinging for xingyiquan.

In my own opinion, the forms are more for fun and demonstration than as main practice material. Still, they are useful for learning to link together what you learn separately. The gongli exercises, single movements, etc. are the most important, I think - so it is kind of like xinyiliuhequan, anyway (they are related after all, I guess!). But you do have other things to train sometimes to make it more fun.

[Overlord]

From my limited understanding ~
翻浪勁 is the essence and uniqueness of Xingyi.

[suckinlhbf]

扭擰番轉 from my suck understanding.

[GrahamB]

Of course the 12 animals of xyq and the 12 of xylhq are related. They're the same thing just seperayed by years and lineages.

They're the heart of xyq except they're not really anymore since people think they're just a collection of cool techniques.... So yes they're largely irrelevant these days. Carry on - nothing to see here