Xingyiquan Questions..

[daniel pfister]

. Basically you are doing that bloody Caijibu all day long and that's where the power comes from. Then there is one very short form called Sibachui.

Although very effective, what I didn't like about it was that it was exhausting and not very fun.

Good stuff! My teacher, Liu Xiaoling, would refer to chicken stepping and the XYLH animals in general as Gongfuquan. Meaning they were very tiring, monotonous, but designed for that heavy duty conditioning. Once I could do 20 minutes of straight caijibu, EVERYTHING else seemed easier.

From what I've seen so far there is not a heavy emphasis on Santishi in Wu Shifu's Xingyiquan (THANK GOD). Instead of Caijibu the focus is on Houzuobu (Back sitting step, which is a moving Santishi). There is more sticking to your opponent and developing Tingjin (XYLHQ just plows through your opponent). There just seems to be a lot more to do, some variation. I just like how it feels.

IMHO, the big difference in the the two styles is that XYQ uses structure more and most of the attacks utilize the hands (fists), thus Santi (for structure) and wuxingquan (for using the fists). XYLH, has less structure, and uses the hard points of the body (head, feet, elbows, knees, hands, hands) more equally as bludgeoning instruments. If XYQ is like a staff that moves as a unit, XYLH would be like a 3-section-staff, that just beats you with everything its got. Although they have the same root, the two feel very distinct to me.

[Ozguorui]

If you already know XYLH, you have enough for health and martial....the only reason to learn more "stuff" is for friendship, research and for the sake of "the art". These are good reasons for me.

[MaartenSFS]

Hi again Interesting about xinyiliuhequan, I did see some people practice the caijibu and also the swinging shoulders thing. There are stepping drills in xingyiquan, too, but I never myself learned anything like the shoulders swinging for xingyiquan.

In my own opinion, the forms are more for fun and demonstration than as main practice material. Still, they are useful for learning to link together what you learn separately. The gongli exercises, single movements, etc. are the most important, I think - so it is kind of like xinyiliuhequan, anyway (they are related after all, I guess!). But you do have other things to train sometimes to make it more fun.

That's how I feel about it. In the end, save for several, I liked the single movements from other arts better. I needed a bit more depth too, and a lot more fun. The more I enjoy it the harder I'll train.

So I asked him today and he said that most of it was in his system. I then began to learn Piquanzhuang. It's basically stopping and doing Zhanzhuang four times during a normal Piquan routine and moving on to the next one when "tired". I was tired before I started so I'm not sure how long I'm supposed to do it.. All of the drills are to be done in this way. Didn't get to the Sanshoupao yet. Perhaps tomorrow. Still spending most of the time on Piquan and Wuhuapao.

[MaartenSFS]

. Basically you are doing that bloody Caijibu all day long and that's where the power comes from. Then there is one very short form called Sibachui.

Although very effective, what I didn't like about it was that it was exhausting and not very fun.

Good stuff! My teacher, Liu Xiaoling, would refer to chicken stepping and the XYLH animals in general as Gongfuquan. Meaning they were very tiring, monotonous, but designed for that heavy duty conditioning. Once I could do 20 minutes of straight caijibu, EVERYTHING else seemed easier.

From what I've seen so far there is not a heavy emphasis on Santishi in Wu Shifu's Xingyiquan (THANK GOD). Instead of Caijibu the focus is on Houzuobu (Back sitting step, which is a moving Santishi). There is more sticking to your opponent and developing Tingjin (XYLHQ just plows through your opponent). There just seems to be a lot more to do, some variation. I just like how it feels.

IMHO, the big difference in the the two styles is that XYQ uses structure more and most of the attacks utilize the hands (fists), thus Santi (for structure) and wuxingquan (for using the fists). XYLH, has less structure, and uses the hard points of the body (head, feet, elbows, knees, hands, hands) more equally as bludgeoning instruments. If XYQ is like a staff that moves as a unit, XYLH would be like a 3-section-staff, that just beats you with everything its got. Although they have the same root, the two feel very distinct to me.

You hit the nail right on the head. If I hadn't spent all of my patience on Taijiquan I probably would have been more eager to grind like that..

[edededed]

Cool - I learned a Guo Yunshen line, too, and we did piquanzhuang as well - in some lines, piquanzhuang is slightly different from the normal santishi (in others it is the same), try seeing if yours is, too.

A bit interesting that you learned wuhuapao (and other partner drills) early on - since wuhuapao has within it much of the wuxingquan, etc. (at least mine did).

[MaartenSFS]

How many lines did you learn??

I'll ask Wu Shifu about it tomorrow, but it seems like it's identical.

His Wuhuapao has a high Piquan, a block/parry/elbow break, another high Piquan followed by yet another coming from underneath, then a Bengquan and finally a low Piquan. His Piquan includes a Zuanquan in it, so I'm only missing Pao and Heng, the former of which is taught in Sanshoupao.

[edededed]

Sorry - by "line" I mean "lineage," as in I also learned a Guo Yunshen lineage, which was my main xingyi. (I also dabbled a bit in others, like a Liu Qilan lineage.)

Your wuhuapao sounds pretty similar to mine (although it's a bit hazy for me now, no partners to practice with). My sanshoupao was a bit different, as mine only had zuan and piquan (x 2) in it. But perhaps it is a different hanzi (my "san" = "3").

[dspyrido]

Both xy and xylh have rivers that run deep. They both have basics for stretching and boosting the body. They both have standing postures (xylh has several).

They both use forms to teach the coordination & boost the body. On the surface they may appear like they are techniques, many describe them as techniques but this is a "skin" mindset because many are demonstrated this way. 5 elements & 10 animal are really conditioning routines with a mind link - 12 animals forms tend to be examples of application (again with a mind link).

Both styles teach the mind links the body. It takes years of drilling to get the body moving naturally & with power to be ale to take advantage of the mental element. Then it is about application of the body.

Both styles can be learnt in the following approaches but XY tends to focus more on techniques by transitioning into 2 man forms and the animal variations.

Instead of moving to 2 man forms xylh keeps drilling the body and mind because there is no end point on conditioning in the "forms" (they are really conditioning routines).

Chicken walk is only the foundation (lower). The same gruelling approach to conditioning is applied to build the waist (middle) & then shoulders to the end points (upper). Technqiues are taught in the xylh but they are not form based or prescriptive. They are provided as examples of the animals but they are only there to guide someone on the essence of the animals & the system. Beyond this the expectation is that the student has graduated with all the tools to keep practising, fighting and train with others. The style is not as structured but leaves room for interpretation, improvisation and evolution. The style just provides a framework in 10 animals which can be interpreted into thousands of techniques.

[Trick]

dspyrido, that was a good post.
"Instead of moving to 2 man forms xylh keeps drilling the body and mind because there is no end point on conditioning in the "forms" (they are really conditioning routines)." This is how i was taught and practise xyq from my main teacher, just adding a very simple partner exercise and from there sparring ( boxing style). Learned a two person "sparring" form from another teacher, but could not come to like that practise. / Rick

[MaartenSFS]

Sorry - by "line" I mean "lineage," as in I also learned a Guo Yunshen lineage, which was my main xingyi. (I also dabbled a bit in others, like a Liu Qilan lineage.)

Your wuhuapao sounds pretty similar to mine (although it's a bit hazy for me now, no partners to practice with). My sanshoupao was a bit different, as mine only had zuan and piquan (x 2) in it. But perhaps it is a different hanzi (my "san" = "3").

Don't worry, I know what you meant, but you answered my question regardless..

Wu Shifu's Sanshoupao is two Bengquan, two Paoquan and two horizontal Piquan done in Mabu.

I really like the Wuhuapao as a solo exercise as well. Done with a partner I love how you can test your Gongli a bit, as if you launch a powerful Bengquan but don't have a solid stance your partner will catch it and pull you forwards and to the side. The Xingyi Tuishou seems to be like this as well, done with a lot of power (but not "hard") to challenge the other person.

[MaartenSFS]

I totally agree with that, Dspyrido. Zou Shifu's Taiji and Bagua were also influenced by this idea. The movements are just starting points from which thousands of techniques can be mined. I like your idea of them as conditioning exercises. From what I've seen so far the partner drills are somewhat like Tuishou drills, but with full power and speed behind each technique. I think that these are all good steps between solo work and sparring. I'm so glad that I already learned a lot from Zou Shifu and am at a level where I can recognise the benefits of training in this way and have the patience to do so. Wu Shifu is really a stickler for details and he is just what I needed at this stage! In two weeks time I feel that I am already at a much better place than I was before!

Would you say that Fajin is done in the same way in these two systems? It seems similar, but not identical to me. My previous training is really helping me, though. Essentially I skipped a lot of steps and am going back to the beginning to build a new foundation whilst keeping the old roof, if that makes sense.

[edededed]

Sorry - by "line" I mean "lineage," as in I also learned a Guo Yunshen lineage, which was my main xingyi. (I also dabbled a bit in others, like a Liu Qilan lineage.)

Your wuhuapao sounds pretty similar to mine (although it's a bit hazy for me now, no partners to practice with). My sanshoupao was a bit different, as mine only had zuan and piquan (x 2) in it. But perhaps it is a different hanzi (my "san" = "3").

Don't worry, I know what you meant, but you answered my question regardless..

Wu Shifu's Sanshoupao is two Bengquan, two Paoquan and two horizontal Piquan done in Mabu.

I really like the Wuhuapao as a solo exercise as well. Done with a partner I love how you can test your Gongli a bit, as if you launch a powerful Bengquan but don't have a solid stance your partner will catch it and pull you forwards and to the side. The Xingyi Tuishou seems to be like this as well, done with a lot of power (but not "hard") to challenge the other person.

Ah, great! As for sanshoupao - my sanshoupao is different, but I learned your routine, too (almost the same, except beng is only once)! From all the 2-person routines I learned myself it was the only stationary (mabu) one, which makes it a bit unique and good practice for beginners! Is your wuhuapao stationary or moving back and forth?

But yeah, 2-person practices in xingyi (and bagua, too) are usually not soft like taiji, so you can "feel" the power of the other person... If your partner has a lot more gongli than you, you will feel it! On the other hand, if you have trained the taiji-kind of power, you won't feel the power, but you will be unbalanced, anyway...

[MaartenSFS]

You're right about the Wuhuapao (not in Mabu either here). Did it again this morning and it was quite a workout!

I began to learn Bazibu (八字步) today, which was footwork around one, two, three trees in all directions, forwards and backwards. At the end he was teaching me how to do Piquan (always with Zuanquan as a set up - do you do that too?) around the trees, but my mind was fried already.. It was amazing! Similar to Baguazhang. Perhaps taken out of Baguazhang, but it flowed so well the Wuxingquan that I didn't care.

[edededed]

Cool, looks like you're learning exciting stuff! The stepping methods sometimes look like baguazhang, but xingyiquan works well with baguazhang stepping.

As for piquan - piquan goes down, so you have to start by going up. In many Hebei styles, this has become zuanquan.

[dspyrido]

Would you say that Fajin is done in the same way in these two systems? It seems similar, but not identical to me. My previous training is really helping me, though. Essentially I skipped a lot of steps and am going back to the beginning to build a new foundation whilst keeping the old roof, if that makes sense.

The magic in these training methods is that when you know what to look for you always find yourself drawn to the basics because they are just so hard to get right. On the surface they look simple but there is a lot going on. If you find yourself skipping and want more techniques eventually you will get over that and come back to the basics. Techniques are useful to guide but get supercharged by the right body method.

As for fajin - this depends on the path being trained. 5 element can be trained like 10 animal. 10 animal contains the 5 element methods. 12 animal can mix in the same way. In the end what is built is what is the preferred basic & how you interpret it.

Consider:
- guo young shen and his focus on bung (wood) & real "kung fu" methods
- how one animal can be an entire fighting system in it's own right
- that a joint just 1 inch out can change the structure
- power once developed needs to be applied & this is best done with others not of the same style & not being training dummies. The lessons learnt then go back into refining the basics.