Xingyiquan Questions..

[MaartenSFS]

Cool, looks like you're learning exciting stuff! The stepping methods sometimes look like baguazhang, but xingyiquan works well with baguazhang stepping.

As for piquan - piquan goes down, so you have to start by going up. In many Hebei styles, this has become zuanquan.

Ah, that makes sense now. I was thinking; when am I going to start learning them individually?? We worked on moving around the trees and doing Zuanquan and Piquan some more today. Fuck me, I love it. There was nothing like this in Taijiquan. This is going to do wonders for my Gongfu.

[MaartenSFS]

The basics are so hard to get right. So many little details. For example, he noticed I have a tendency to shake my head slightly when I Fajin, so he has me turn down my chin and slightly tense up my neck/jaw (for lack of a better description). That way it will be tough to get a KO on me. Also, why do I need to turn my body so much? Later, when working between trees it made more sense to keep a streamlined profile. Why do I have to be so far back all the time? In Wuhuapao when I did a Bengquan it was so hard to stay balanced when my partner blocked it/grabbed me. I really think that this art is simple, yet very deep. I think that it would work great against multiple opponents as well.

Guo Yunshen was famed for his Banbu Bengquan. He probably had a million entering moves, but he must have spent a lot of time just grinding Bengquan. I think a lot of the rest of the curriculum (like a lot of the forms) must have been added later. We'll see what I end up having time for, but I am confident that in a year I'll have enough to work with for a long, long time. Also, it's not like I've forgotten the XYLHQ that I had learned. I can just add them to whatever animals I learn here.

I'll keep your tips in mind. There is supposedly a group of "boxers" that meet up every morning. In several months, when I've gotten a lot of the basics down I'll go test my luck..

[MaartenSFS]

Okay, so I had some time to research the forms that you mentioned..

Bazigong I'm not really sure about, since it seems like no videos are a like.

Siba is very short and looks a little bit like Sibachui from Xinyiliuhequan, but with emphasis on different things.

Zashichui (杂式捶???) seems longer than Wuxinglianhuanquan, but with a lot of movements repeated, so not too bad. What is the most important reason for learning this one?

Wuxingpao looks about the same length as Wuxinglianhuanquan, but is a partnered exercise. Is it basically training Wuxingquan with a partner?

For sure, Wu Shifu knows all of these, so I can learn what I want and have time for. I don't want to get carried away but knowing a fairly short form like Wuxinglianhuanquan or two and several very short partnered forms would keep me busy for centuries. I don't want to learn all of them, though. I need good reasons to learn any of them.

At this point I can only be sure that I'll learn Wuhuapao (already training), Sanshoupao and Wuxinglianhuanquan. Unless there is something between Wuhuapao and Wuxingpao, the latter seems like a good candidate to learn. It's three forms in one, plus the applications are clear as day. Thoughts?

[edededed]

- Siba might be quite interesting for you to learn, since you have learned sibachui from xinyiliuhe already (new insights?).
- Zashichui is different things to different people - some people consider it an advanced form to link the wuxing and shierxing together; to me, it is more of a kind of linked basic power training. It's perhaps the longest xingyi form out there, though. It looks vaguely similar to the similarly-named zhashi of Dai family xinyi, and may be vaguely related.
- Wuxingpao is like wuhuapao, but with the wuxingxiangke philosophy stuck into it. Great if you like the philosophy!

Again, I think the forms are just for fun to be honest. Learn the basic skills and exercises, and practice those most; learn the forms for fun to add variety to your practice!

Bazigong is a bit different - bazigong stands for eight different hanzi words, and each is a different principle. Some lineages have turned that into 8 specific practices (like another set besides wuxing and shierxing); they also often then link them together into a complex form (i.e. bazigonglianhuanquan). Many lines that have this consider it very valuable.

[jaime_g]

I barely remember xingyi, but the bazigong that I learnt was a short linking set divided in:

Zhan- Chopping downwards with the arm
Jie- Horizontal elbow and low kick at the same time
Guo- Wrapping with the inside of the forearm while changing sides
Kua- Like Kao in taiji
Tiao- Chopping upwards with the arm
Ding-Jumping pao quan
Yun- Like cloud hands in taiji
Ling-One arm leading like in taiji Lu and the other doing a rising elbow, ending like a figure 4 standing choke

There also were individual sets expanding each word, but I never learnt them

[dspyrido]

The basics are so hard to get right. So many little details. For example, he noticed I have a tendency to shake my head slightly when I Fajin, so he has me turn down my chin and slightly tense up my neck/jaw (for lack of a better description). That way it will be tough to get a KO on me.

The basics & little tweaks are everything. Without them we would be doing yet another form. Learning the forms or the variations are nowhere near as important. Even things like anshenpao or siba pale in comparison to getting & drilling the fundamentals. If I were in your position I would try to capture as much of that as possible. Once you get the fundamentals then you can make up as many forms as you like.

BTW the adjustment to neck is correct & it's good it was described this way. Everything in xy/xylh is about improving structure for fighting ability. The health flow on benefit need not be described because everything being taught in xy should be beneficial.

Also, why do I need to turn my body so much? Later, when working between trees it made more sense to keep a streamlined profile. Why do I have to be so far back all the time? In Wuhuapao when I did a Bengquan it was so hard to stay balanced when my partner blocked it/grabbed me. I really think that this art is simple, yet very deep. I think that it would work great against multiple opponents as well.

Some pointers to your questions:
- We sit back in santi for the same reason we sit forward in chicken walk - to build the leg power, flexibility and stability
- We step and move to be able to take the power that is being generated and apply it - effectively we learn to strike with the legs (& the rest of the body) but it is also really useful when in a grappling situation
- We twist the body not because it is more difficult to hit (although it does have that benefit) but because it builds the core power, flexibility & stability (NOTE: you must twist the torso - not the hips. The hips must point forward).

Theres a lot of other things to capture along the way including the harmonies, the use of visualisations, engaging & applying the bows, the alignments & so on.

Another thing to note - the method of training is not necessarily how xy is fought. Once you have built the structure you can take on any stance you feel comfortable with. People who do santi in competitions (or fights) really do not get why it exists.

[MaartenSFS]

- Siba might be quite interesting for you to learn, since you have learned sibachui from xinyiliuhe already (new insights?).
- Zashichui is different things to different people - some people consider it an advanced form to link the wuxing and shierxing together; to me, it is more of a kind of linked basic power training. It's perhaps the longest xingyi form out there, though. It looks vaguely similar to the similarly-named zhashi of Dai family xinyi, and may be vaguely related.
- Wuxingpao is like wuhuapao, but with the wuxingxiangke philosophy stuck into it. Great if you like the philosophy!

Again, I think the forms are just for fun to be honest. Learn the basic skills and exercises, and practice those most; learn the forms for fun to add variety to your practice!

Bazigong is a bit different - bazigong stands for eight different hanzi words, and each is a different principle. Some lineages have turned that into 8 specific practices (like another set besides wuxing and shierxing); they also often then link them together into a complex form (i.e. bazigonglianhuanquan). Many lines that have this consider it very valuable.

I never did learn Sibachui. It just didn't interest me much. It didn't even contain most of the techniques from XYLHQ that I liked.
I'll have to ask him more about Zashichui and Bazigong, as those sound practical. What do you mean about liking the Xuxingxiangke philosophy?
After training around the trees these days and the free-flowing nature of that type of practise I think that that is the direction I'd like to head in. Wu Shifu says that Shierxing is trained that way as well. Love it!

[MaartenSFS]

I barely remember xingyi, but the bazigong that I learnt was a short linking set divided in:

Zhan- Chopping downwards with the arm
Jie- Horizontal elbow and low kick at the same time
Guo- Wrapping with the inside of the forearm while changing sides
Kua- Like Kao in taiji
Tiao- Chopping upwards with the arm
Ding-Jumping pao quan
Yun- Like cloud hands in taiji
Ling-One arm leading like in taiji Lu and the other doing a rising elbow, ending like a figure 4 standing choke

There also were individual sets expanding each word, but I never learnt them

Okay, that sounds really practical. Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to ask Wu Shifu more about it.

[MaartenSFS]

The basics are so hard to get right. So many little details. For example, he noticed I have a tendency to shake my head slightly when I Fajin, so he has me turn down my chin and slightly tense up my neck/jaw (for lack of a better description). That way it will be tough to get a KO on me.

The basics & little tweaks are everything. Without them we would be doing yet another form. Learning the forms or the variations are nowhere near as important. Even things like anshenpao or siba pale in comparison to getting & drilling the fundamentals. If I were in your position I would try to capture as much of that as possible. Once you get the fundamentals then you can make up as many forms as you like.

BTW the adjustment to neck is correct & it's good it was described this way. Everything in xy/xylh is about improving structure for fighting ability. The health flow on benefit need not be described because everything being taught in xy should be beneficial.

Also, why do I need to turn my body so much? Later, when working between trees it made more sense to keep a streamlined profile. Why do I have to be so far back all the time? In Wuhuapao when I did a Bengquan it was so hard to stay balanced when my partner blocked it/grabbed me. I really think that this art is simple, yet very deep. I think that it would work great against multiple opponents as well.

Some pointers to your questions:
- We sit back in santi for the same reason we sit forward in chicken walk - to build the leg power, flexibility and stability
- We step and move to be able to take the power that is being generated and apply it - effectively we learn to strike with the legs (& the rest of the body) but it is also really useful when in a grappling situation
- We twist the body not because it is more difficult to hit (although it does have that benefit) but because it builds the core power, flexibility & stability (NOTE: you must twist the torso - not the hips. The hips must point forward).

Theres a lot of other things to capture along the way including the harmonies, the use of visualisations, engaging & applying the bows, the alignments & so on.

Another thing to note - the method of training is not necessarily how xy is fought. Once you have built the structure you can take on any stance you feel comfortable with. People who do santi in competitions (or fights) really do not get why it exists.

You're right. That's my exact mindset. I want to be able to use everything that I learn in a fight by the time I leave here. Just like the Taiji forms there is only really a small percentage of techniques that I use all the time. I've seen the longer form and I didn't see anything that I didn't already learn in Taiji. But the attention to detail in the Wuxingquan is really something special and, combined with the footwork, really what I need now.

I'll keep all of your tips in mind as I grind the basics every day. I think that Santishi can be used in fighting, but only when the situation calls for it, and never for long. The same can be said of any stance, really. Nothing is set in stone, so to speak..

Today I was taught to do Hanjibu and Santibu standing by a tree and slowly lowering myself until me leg/s were at a ninety degree angle. I have a real problem with Zhanzhuang training because of an old injury to my foot and an extremely wandering mind. I really like this sort of training to add into my daily routine. I do feel that the line drills have become easier over the last several days, as my Gongli improves.

Is there a good website out there that can give me more information about the theories and methods of practise? I haven't found anything. Found some amazingly terrible sparring videos of some people claiming to do Xingyiquan in America, though... O...M...G...

Oh, and today someone came to "challenge" (Qiecuo). It was a light, no gloves bout. Found my second sparring partner here!

[Josealb]

Hi Maarten,

I like to think of the wuxing and bazigong as the alphabet, and the animals and forms as grammar and language in general. The animals themselves are not just techniques, they are techniques within a context. The context involves specific intentions/yi, that are the core of the strategy/technique itself. Think of saying "God dammit." in a low, lazy manner if you just saw your new puppy dog did a number one on a couch corner. Now think of saying "GOD DAMMIT!" when you violently struck your pinky toe on a hallway corner, while running to get to the phone on time. Same alphabet, very different intentions.

Regarding your head vibrating during different type of power expression, if you take a long, metal rod, and you slam it vertically on concrete, you will see the upper tip of it vibrate, which is what happens when you transfer power. Now, make the tip, the contact point where your power will be delivered to whatever you are hitting, and remember that you can do this in different ways, not just from the ground up. You can use, or should i say, should use the opposite sides of the body to give power via axis rotation. Almost all xingyi moves will have an opposing force pulling while another shoots away from you. Almost all xingyi moves also are divided in twos....one that opens/expands and another that closes/contracts, or vice versa.

In my opinion, all moves can be individualized and drilled over and over, and tweaked to train something specific, and these things can be techniques, or the motor movement that powers them. Some are amazing at conditioning and developing shenfa, like the chicken step in XYLH. Once you have a strong foundation, everything else will work as intended.

Hope it helps.

[MaartenSFS]

I see what you're saying. When I learned XYLHQ my master/s never really talked about the personalities of the different animals, but it makes sense that you would try to evoke the "spirit". Some animals may be ferocious, whilst others swoop in. Still others may jump in and out of the action or attack from odd angles.

I'm definitely feeling that opening/closing and vice versa. Things are starting to come together. Thank God I trained a lot of good things over the past two years and most of it is applicable to Xingyiquan in some way or another. The head vibrating is one thing, but I do have a tendency to "shake" when I Fajin, something that my Wu Shifu says wastes the energy. It makes a lot more sense to keep a solid frame, especially around the head/neck.

My new plan is to learn all of the animal techniques that I like. I like to keep things very simple. If some of them are similar to those I've learned before I'll keep the one I like best. The techniques that have no equivalent I'll put with which ever animal seems fit. I'll consult my old master about this.

Wu Shifu showed me that all of the techniques can be trained with the footwork flowing around the trees. Such a cool, freeing feeiling..

[Overlord]

[youtube] http://youtu.be/HMwRituMNKU?list=PL2BF96242C1096D94 [/youtube]

Highly recommended Tangshoudao Hong Yizong lineage~
Yes, Tang Shoudao !!

[MaartenSFS]

It's a bit far for me to get over there...

So, I've basically been training the same.. Piquan, Zuanquan, Bengquan.. and then with "tree footwork", plus a little bit of Wuhuapao. That's kept me busy.. Then training some Gongli exercises and Xingyi Tuishou, Qiaoshou (hitting each other in various places of the body, plus footwork) etc. I also met a master that has learned from over 30 masters around China and won Sanda competitions and now teaches bodyguards how to fight in cities around China, but is based here, in his hometown. He's got the goods, but he's kind of an aresehole. I may still learn some interesting things from him, when I can, though.

I've seen the Wuxinglianhuanquan form more now and don't want to learn it, as it has too many movements that will hurt my weak ankle and that seem impractical compared to what I've learned so far or I've already learned similar things elsewhere. Any thoughts on which form I could learn to replace it? Wuxingpao seems quite practical, as it is a short partnered form that I can also train solo?? Does it include all five of the Wuxingquan?

[Josealb]

Maarten, im curious about the wuxing lianhuan you have available. Its supposed to be short and straight forward, simply the basic elements strung together, with a bit of different intentions, but nothing too long or complicated. Nothing beats the elements for just raw practicality.

There is a Wu Hua Pao form, although im not sure if you can find it. Its basically 5 types of Pao Quan strung together in a straight line, which you repeat.

The elements themselves can be connected like jigsaw puzzles, if you want to them with different stepping, and angles.

[edededed]

Yeah, wuxinglianhuan is usually pretty similar across the branches, and mostly just a short routine with all 5 of the wuxing at least once each, usually with a few extra movements as well.

I'm not sure that it would hurt your ankle any more than normal (moving) wuxing practice would. There are very few movements (usually 2 or 3) that are not already exactly the same as what you practice in the moving wuxing.