Naturalistic Tai Chi

[daniel pfister]

The most basic idea of Qi relates to our breath and heart rate in the saying 'Keep qi in the dantian'. The Dantian being an expanded, relaxed space inside the abdomen but hard on the outside, within this relaxed space is the Inferior Vena Cava (IVC), the large vein before the blood goes up into the cardio-pulmonary system where deoxygenated blood is filtered through the lungs. The IVC can be kept dilated and acts as a reservoir for the blood, where a constricting IVC will force more deoxygenated blood then the cardio pulmonary system can handle and you start losing your breath/ gassing out. So 'Keeping the qi in the Dantian' is a) building a dantian b) establishing a somatic connection to the triggers that dilate or constrict the IVC.

I find this a very odd way of talking about the cardiopulmonary system. During exercise, dilation of the blood vessels occurs automatically. There's no need to think about it anymore than we need to think about digestion. Dilation occurs precisely because we need to get rid of excess CO2 and re-oxygenate our blood, so wanting to constrict your blood vessels to prevent this process would kinda be similar to holding your breath while running. You'll pass out pretty quickly.

Better advice is to simply breath deeply, re-oxygenating the blood in a more efficient manner.

[D_Glenn]

The most basic idea of Qi relates to our breath and heart rate in the saying 'Keep qi in the dantian'. The Dantian being an expanded, relaxed space inside the abdomen but hard on the outside, within this relaxed space is the Inferior Vena Cava (IVC), the large vein before the blood goes up into the cardio-pulmonary system where deoxygenated blood is filtered through the lungs. The IVC can be kept dilated and acts as a reservoir for the blood, where a constricting IVC will force more deoxygenated blood then the cardio pulmonary system can handle and you start losing your breath/ gassing out. So 'Keeping the qi in the Dantian' is a) building a dantian b) establishing a somatic connection to the triggers that dilate or constrict the IVC.

I find this a very odd way of talking about the cardiopulmonary system. During exercise, dilation of the blood vessels occurs automatically. There's no need to think about it anymore than we need to think about digestion. Dilation occurs precisely because we need to get rid of excess CO2 and re-oxygenate our blood, so wanting to constrict your blood vessels to prevent this process would kinda be similar to holding your breath while running. You'll pass out pretty quickly.

Better advice is to simply breath deeply, re-oxygenating the blood in a more efficient manner.

You misunderstand.
You want the IVC to remain dilated, not constricted. It's a major reservoir of blood, and if the blood and qi can be kept calm it allows it to filter into the extremities of the kidneys where it can pick up more EPO then when rushing through them, which in turn the EPO will increase the health and elasticity of the smooth-muscle that lines the veins and allow a greater capacity to dilate.

Also Note- only the abdominal aorta and several other major arteries are lined with smooth-muscle, but all the veins in the body are, so in exercise it's more likely that constriction of the veins is happening in order to return the blood to the heart and lungs, not dilation.

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[daniel pfister]

Also Note- only the abdominal aorta and several other major arteries are lined with smooth-muscle, but all the veins in the body are, so in exercise it's more likely that constriction of the veins is happening in order to return the blood to the heart and lungs, not dilation.

Nope, not bloody likely.

Please see this article, scroll down to the Cardiovascular system, and read what it says about blood flow and dilation. http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/6/185.full

In exercise, heart rate increases, pumping the blood faster. If this were to happen at the same time the veins were constricting it would defeat the purpose by impeding blood flow. (Constriction means a smaller hole that less blood can pass through at any given time.) We would not be able to clear enough CO2 out of our system to sustain even a light jog, and we would pass out in short order from the acid build up in our blood.

Conversely , keeping the blood "calm" (low heart rate) doesn't dilate the blood vessels. If it did, our blood pressure would be too low and, yep, we'd pass out.

Even though this seems off topic, it sort of gets to the heart of what I'm saying. You've let this idea of Qi, which I maintain is just an imaginary depiction of how people feel, trick you into believing things which are completely false.

[D_Glenn]

Also Note- only the abdominal aorta and several other major arteries are lined with smooth-muscle, but all the veins in the body are, so in exercise it's more likely that constriction of the veins is happening in order to return the blood to the heart and lungs, not dilation.

Nope, not bloody likely.

Please see this article, scroll down to the Cardiovascular system, and read what it says about blood flow and dilation. http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/6/185.full

In exercise, heart rate increases, pumping the blood faster. If this were to happen at the same time the veins were constricting it would defeat the purpose by impeding blood flow. (Constriction means a smaller hole that less blood can pass through at any given time.) We would not be able to clear enough CO2 out of our system to sustain even a light jog, and we would pass out in short order from the acid build up in our blood.

Conversely , keeping the blood "calm" (low heart rate) doesn't dilate the blood vessels. If it did, our blood pressure would be too low and, yep, we'd pass out.

Even though this seems off topic, it sort of gets to the heart of what I'm saying. You've let this idea of Qi, which I maintain is just an imaginary depiction of how people feel, trick you into believing things which are completely false.

Holy crap you are dense.

"Oxygen utilization by the body can never be more than the rate at which the cardiovascular system can transport oxygen to the tissues. There is only a moderate increase in blood pressure secondary to the rise in cardiac output. This is caused by stretching of the walls of the arterioles and vasodilatation, which in combination reduce overall peripheral vascular resistance. There is a large increase in venous return as a consequence of muscular contraction, blood diversion from the viscera and vasoconstriction." ~ from the article you just linked: http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/6/185.full

The few arteries that have smooth-muscle linings will undergo vasodilatation but the veins / venous will undergo vasoconstriction.

The largest vein in our body is the Inferior Vena Cava (IVC) which is inside our Dantian. When in a fight it is wanting to vasoconstrict and push blood faster then the cardiopulmonary system can handle and you gas out in a fight. Keeping the qi in the Dantian is how you prevent this by helping to keep the IVC dilated.

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[daniel pfister]

"Oxygen utilization by the body can never be more than the rate at which the cardiovascular system can transport oxygen to the tissues. There is only a moderate increase in blood pressure secondary to the rise in cardiac output. This is caused by stretching of the walls of the arterioles and vasodilatation, which in combination reduce overall peripheral vascular resistance. There is a large increase in venous return as a consequence of muscular contraction, blood diversion from the viscera and vasoconstriction." ~ from the article you just linked: http://ceaccp.oxfordjournals.org/content/4/6/185.full

The few arteries that have smooth-muscle linings will undergo vasodilatation but the veins / venous will undergo vasoconstriction.

Thank you for reading the article.

To paraphrase: overall peripheral vascular resistance is reduced due to vasodilatation. If this didn't happen overall, in both veins and arteries, blood flow would not increase and we'd pass out during exercise. The vasoconstriction referred to occurs intermittently like a pump to push the increased blood back to the heart, but this could not occur if there was not overall dilation. You said dilation wasn't happening. That's not right. It has to happen.

The largest vein in our body is the Inferior Vena Cava (IVC) which is inside our Dantian. When in a fight it is wanting to vasoconstrict and push blood faster then the cardiopulmonary system can handle and you gas out in a fight. Keeping the qi in the Dantian is how you prevent this by helping to keep the IVC dilated.

The IVC could be constricted by holding the breath and performing a valsalva maneuver. Initially, you'd squeeze more blood to the heart, increasing blood pressure briefly. The problem isn't that this is "faster then the cardiopulmonary system can handle", rather it is that the continued constriction will decrease blood flow dramatically after the initial squeeze. You're saying you want to keep too much the blood from flowing back to the heart/lungs to prevent a "gas out." But during a fight or any exertion, you will "gas out" if blood flow isn't fast enough for gas exchange to occur in the lungs, not the other way around.

If ALL you are saying is that we shouldn't forget to breathe during a fight or try to perform the valsalva maneuver then I'm fine with that. But using your "Qi in the Dantian" justification for this prescription for action leads you and others to incorrect notions about what is actually going on in the body.

[D_Glenn]

Okay. So you are clearly not going to actually read my posts, let alone comprehend them, but what could I expect, you don't even read or comprehend the articles that you link to.


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[daniel pfister]

If you believe (as you said) that someone will "gas out" in a fight because blood flow is too fast, then I'd like to see some evidence for that. I maintain that it is the other way around.

[D_Glenn]

Volume. Not speed. I misworded that earlier.

The IVC is our controller of blood volume, independent from pressure of or velocity.

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[daniel pfister]

Ok, so what is your evidence that too much blood by volume sent back to the heart will cause you to "gas out" during a fight/exercise?

[D_Glenn]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23537256

Don't forget that the other key aspect of Keeping Qi in the Dantian is to allow the picking up of more EPO and it's over the months or years of daily practice that the smooth-muscle tissue are regenerated, angiogenesis, etc. so it's long gradual process that involves several different physiological mechanisms. Just building the muscle structure of a Dantian takes several months, then holding that strong while keeping a hollow inside to Keep Qi in the Dantian is anotherseveral months. And this is just one of the first stages one passes through in Building a Foundation. There's several stages that come after that but it's still just basically building a greater function of the circulatory system. But like I said in my first post don't worry about Qi, it's the shen that is important.

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[D_Glenn]

The IVC could be constricted by holding the breath and performing a valsalva maneuver. Initially, you'd squeeze more blood to the heart, increasing blood pressure briefly. The problem isn't that this is "faster then the cardiopulmonary system can handle", rather it is that the continued constriction will decrease blood flow dramatically after the initial squeeze.

BTW the Valsalva maneuver temporarily constricts the Superior Vena Cava. You are in the wrong in the part of the body.

Are you speed reading, but not actually any good at speed reading?

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[daniel pfister]

BTW the Valsalva maneuver temporarily constricts the Superior Vena Cava. You are in the wrong in the part of the body.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209428/

And



I'm going to let others look at the evidence presented and ask questions if they are still interested.

[D_Glenn]

Daniele Pfister,
http://www.ajconline.org/article/0002-9149(90)91333-2/abstract

It makes sense though, that the thoracic pressure, also goes down into the IVC, that's why they did the study I guess.

Thank you for bringing up The Valsalva maneuver.

Building a Dantian, then learning to keep qi in the dantian, is to eventually increase one's capacity for the volume of blood that the IVC can hold. There doesn't have to be a significant change in diameter in it's daily function, that's autoregulated and works with the heart, it is what it is.

Having a Dantian and Keeping Qi in the Dantian is allowing the IVC to be functioning at it's max, and the effects of EPO may play a bigger role in what that max is.
A beginner is not going to notice any immediate benefits because they don't have a Dantian.

But I should have made it clear in the beginning that these are long term goals or what are called 'Large-Scale' like a large scale construction project that take years to build.

I was also just trying to help you out on finding real physiological things to relate the Ancient theories to. Like I had said: I agree with your premise in your initial post, and have also sought the same goals of finding a different vocabulary to use. I'm not trying to 'win' some argument with you. So I don't have this theory fully mapped out. Thanks for furthering it though, you made me find some new pieces to the puzzle. I wish I had access to the original Chinese articles that get into all this. It's hard to translate the scientific terms from Chinese to English without seeing it, and relying upon on-the-fly translation of the terms. And also relying on half remembered lectures from years ago.

But on that note- I'm perfectly happy to let you just think that I'm some ignorant charlatan. I have no problem with that. I've been called far worse. Although I'm not selling anything so I might take issue with 'charlatan' but ignorant is apt.

Sorry to have troubled you.
Carry on, carry on.

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