Freedom

[Itten]

I have been lurking here for many years since I am predominantly an aikido man but have many years in other arts including some IMA.l have an observation about most of the video clips floating around hitch leads me to a question and I'd like to hear your opinions on this.
All styles carry preconceptions built in and therefore limitations. Is speed of adaptation to an unknown opponent skill base a sign of a correct and successful Shen Fa. I use the Chinese term with limited linguistic knowledge but it seems the most neat description of a body trading method which creates what Akuzawa would refer to as a Budo body. My experience with him, as well and with Dan Harden and Sam Chin have convinced me the "Grand Ultimate" is not an art but an embodied quality or set of qualities. When these mind/body conditions are met then freedom of response occurs. Force escaping becomes an extension of Yi rather than a calculation and techniques become irrelevant.
All replies are welcome since none of us have a sole license to truth.
respect,
Alec

[jaime_g]

You can train the body in several ways. Each one would change your body in a specific way. Not all the internal is the same, not all develop the same skills.

Having a trained body, you can use it within an art or a mix of arts. A style really is just a proposal of how to use your body

[willie]

Hi Itten, Nice post, Well thought out.

Dan Harden and Sam Chin have convinced me the "Grand Ultimate" is not an art but an embodied quality or set of qualities. When these mind/body conditions are met then freedom of response occurs. Force escaping becomes an extension of Yi rather than a calculation and techniques become irrelevant.

That's a lot to say in one phrase.
The answer is no.
The art is the forms. The gong Fu comes out from the forms.
The embodied quality that you suggest is but a level achieved. There is a much higher level.
It is a level where The embodied quality as you put it, (FULL) Links or catches up with the techniques. They merge and become one.
A hint, because I have no way to explain. " 1.True Gongfu created the form." 2. People are training the form in order to find the Gongfu.
As you can see they are not the same.
Great Post
Thanks

[jaime_g]

If the art is in the form, then why so many people have developed internal skills without forms?

One style can store his internal training in the forms, or just in neigong exercises, without forms. Or can use both a form and separated exercises.

[Itten]

Funny, I agree with both you guys. Internal power does not automatically create external skill. Forms may contain the internal training through the practice of an external method, if the knowledge of the internal method is still present. The body has only so many ways of expressing nature (yin and yang, 5 elements), all techniques are snapshots of transitions , absorb to project, sink to rise, slow to fast, hard to soft, etc.
Emphatic declaration doesn't engender much discussion, maybe I've trained to long to be certain of anything anymore ;-)

[Bao]

Interesting... I like this kind of topic.

Chinese traditional thinking I very much about to create something "tailor made". If you look at the weapon, there are no set length of swords, staffs or spears. The length was according to the individual person's own length. If you look at Chinese medicine, there are no fixed solutions. A doctor treat every case differently and create a cure for the individual and the specific circumstances at hand. I believe that this individualization goes for TCMA as well. There should be no "one size fits all" kind of thinking. You create your own style, your own methods, your own techniques according to your own personality, and your own individual physical traits. Tai Chi and IMA can only suggest ways to find your own potential and how to develop your own art. The art is not the "style". Tai Chi is a tool box, brushes and paper. The art is what you create by yourself using these tools.

[fuga]

I think that "speed of adaptation to an unknown opponent's skill base" is a result of freedom of the mind.

But the body can get in the way of that freedom. So often we need to retrain the body or break habitual patterns to begin to discover that freedom.

Different schools of martial arts have different methods for achieving this whether through form work, shen fa only work, or other ways to embody this freedom of response.

[Itten]

Peter, a question for you. In the martial context is it actually possible to have freedom of mind without freedom of body, or vice versa. If your mind is not free it blocks the body and if the body is not free it blocks the mind. As an aging, somewhat damaged practitioner I find myself needing to identify what my body can freely do in order not to cause mind/ body dis-coordination.Should not an art provide for the changes of age and physical capacity. That is the promise of IMA and it seems to deliver some of the package but with a lot of focus on the wrapping paper and not the content. I'm 64 now and I suspect that a lot of people wring here are quite a bit younger so a chunk of their capacities are going to disappear. I wonder what their focus will be then. I am not talking about "old man tai chi" but a continuing evolution of freedom from limitations.

[Dmitri]

Is speed of adaptation to an unknown opponent skill base a sign of a correct and successful Shen Fa.

I'm assuming that was a question?

I would say, not directly; shouldn't be used as the (main) measuring stick for shenfa IMHO, although I'm not sure what "successful shenfa" means. Shenfa that is well-off?

What are you trying to achieve, what are your goals (if any)?

My experience with him, as well and with Dan Harden and Sam Chin have convinced me the "Grand Ultimate" is not an art but an embodied quality or set of qualities. When these mind/body conditions are met then freedom of response occurs.

That's funny how none of these (very capable) guys actually do tai chi... I generally agree about the "freedom of response", but not so much about the "is not an art but an embodied quality" part. Those aren't mutually exclusive. It is an "art", at least so it has been called since forever, and I don't see why you have the "not ... but" in there. Could be easily replaced with "not ... and".


Re. aging -- I would say, as generally as I can, -- 1) develop and utilize awareness, and 2) move (as much as you can) -- with that awareness. (And of course 3 - watch what you eat.) That combination should (genetics aside) keep one reasonably healthy and injury-free, and that's really all I'm striving for, as I get older.
But again, that's just me -- would need to know what your goals are, as I asked above.

I'm 64 now

So do they still need you, do they still feed you? Just curious.

[fuga]

Peter, a question for you. In the martial context is it actually possible to have freedom of mind without freedom of body, or vice versa. If your mind is not free it blocks the body and if the body is not free it blocks the mind. As an aging, somewhat damaged practitioner I find myself needing to identify what my body can freely do in order not to cause mind/ body dis-coordination.Should not an art provide for the changes of age and physical capacity. That is the promise of IMA and it seems to deliver some of the package but with a lot of focus on the wrapping paper and not the content. I'm 64 now and I suspect that a lot of people wring here are quite a bit younger so a chunk of their capacities are going to disappear. I wonder what their focus will be then. I am not talking about "old man tai chi" but a continuing evolution of freedom from limitations.

Itten,

The mind leads the body. But, as you suggest, a blocked body blocks the mind.

They are both connected obviously.

If one simply moves in accustomed patterns (whether of form or habit), one loses intention. What Dmitri talks about with awareness is spot on.

If you have not already done so, I recommend exploring the work of Moshe Feldenkrais, both his writings and his lessons. He was a judo black belt and developed a method for exploring this freedom at the intersection of mind and movement.

I am one of these quite younger than you (just turned 49) and am experiencing the decline in physical attributes and capacity.

I think you're on the right track by asking questions about how to continue to evolve towards freedom from limitations.

[Itten]

Hello Dmitri
My goals ar not so different from yours, health, wealth, happiness, and oh yes, world peace, of course

I understand the principles of moving with awareness, Sam Chin refers to this as yi dao, chi dao, li dao. Dan also constantly stresses the need to expand awareness into tissue as a pathway to a connected body. You are correct in the observation that none of the three I mentioned are tai chi practitioners but Sifu Chin most certainly utilizes the essence of wuji and tai chi. He teaches a style but with the goL of freedom. Akuzawa teaches body conditioning his way but like Dan it is all about connectivity.
The three of them feel similar but different. What I am looking for is that feeling without the emphasis on style, perhaps because I was a "stylist for a long time. My last aikido instructor was one of Ueshiba's first students and he emphasized the freedom that Ueshiba showed but he himself stayed very clear about the pathway. It is funny that Ueshiba cross trained in many arts to "create" aikido and yet most aikido people are style bound. If not, they cross train to fill in technical gaps. I did that for a number of years, but it is not the way as far as I am concerned.

P.S. They still need me and feed me (sometimes too much) and you are no chicken if you have that reference

[Dmitri]

but it is not the way as far as I am concerned

I agree completely, Tai Chi is way over-stylized as well IMO, there obviously are historical reasons for that but there certainly are much more efficient ways up that "internal" mountain, with much fewer near-useless distractions.

[KEND]

At basic and intermediate level we create a 'toolbox' of techniques, put the body structure in place, develop internal power by use of internal muscles, develop 'connection from limb extremity to body and set up the internal 'radar' that enables one, when bridging, to detect force vectors generated by an opponent and counteract them. Takes a long time and is equal parts art and science.
I put my hand out in front of me and that is 'kung fu'. It has 5 element power, connection, connects to a solid structure and the ability on bridging to defend or attack

[Itten]

KEND everything sounds great, thank you. You speak of basic and intermediate levels as if you have long since mastered these things. No offense intended but everyone on this site seems to be a master, I guess after a lifetime of training I just missed the boat. In 40 years of training I've only met a handful of people where they could say "I put my hand in front of me and that is Kung Fu" and keep a straight face. Nothing you write is alien to me it's just a lot more difficult than most people think.

[Wanderingdragon]

What Kend failed to mention is that at higher levels your toolbox is so full you can empty it, this is your hand before you. It is , IMO, as your opening post, once you have realized the form, it is no longer about the technique,'rather the necessity.