Freedom

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Freedom

Postby willie on Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:09 pm

Itten wrote:Sorry Willie,
I live in The Netherlands, a bit further away;-) I don't train with Dan anymore but I have done a number of workshops with him I am not a champion for him but he is one of the best guys I've ever felt.
If you were inviting me to touch hands with you I would be delighted to if you are ever in Europe. I suspect you are 20 years younger than me so I would ask you to play nice ;D
I wasn't referring to the name of Tai Chi as another version of Tai Chi Chuan, I was referring to the principles of Yin and Yang as present in all things but having endless manifestations.
You seem like a good guy that gets a bit worked up about stuff, we're cool, I'm not blowing my own trumpet or anyone else's. I'm still learning like you and hope to do so the rest of my life.
Night,
Alec


Oh O.K.
I play nice.
Sorry don't travel to much, too many responsibilities here at home.
I like Aikido. I did grapple with an Aikido master a few times, It was fun.
I'm not worked up, very relaxed in-fact.
Thanks for your reply.
willie

 

Re: Freedom

Postby Itten on Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:26 am

To Amor,
What I understand by a budo body:
High level tissue and tendon connection : one part moves all parts move
Continuous natural expression of yin and yang, macro and microcosmic energy orbits, (not metaphysical, yi informed)
Santi or Ten chi jin, heaven earth man posture attained as natural and unforced
Coiled or dragon structure, whole body poised between yin and yang activity, always on the edge of release and always returning, chan tse
Falling power always slightly ahead of rising power, successful usage of gravity and rebound
Listening power and asking power in same touch
Dan tien intelligent enough to allow intellectual activity to disappear(especially in combat)
Three alignments shoulder to hips, elbows to knees, hands to feet
intent is understood as poised condition and not as the :intention" to do something
Head suspended perineum falling.
This is a start but i think i should put more time in writing a complete list to assist my own practice but the above is good outline of the areas I am aiming at.

regards, alec

I had some difficulty picturing Gong Baozhai's open stance. I think turtle back and slightly hollowed chest are good natural expression of body yin/yang but in many practices it becomes over exaggerated. Clips under discussion now about misusage of spinal curvature.
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Re: Freedom

Postby Interloper on Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:48 am

It all starts with awareness and intent, which drives everything. Understanding the elements of a connected "internal" body comes with methodically exercising and developing the ability to consciously -- and with intent -- identify, isolate and activate each factor, and to hold and maintain all of these factors simultaneously to create a baseline neutral starting point, or reference point, from which a nuanced game of adjustment can be made to all changes.

Like any other mental-physical process, each aspect is painstaking at first, but with repetitive practice, it eventually becomes "second nature" so that we utilize it without having to deliberate on each aspect. Think of how one learns to drive a car with manual transmission. At first, it's all about having to think through the process, and make ourselves work the clutch, move the stick shift, add the gas pedal and gradually release the clutch... all while having to pay attention to the road and the conditions. It's a lot of mental processes to keep going at the same time, like juggling multiple balls, but the human brain is naturally attuned to that kind of learning.
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Re: Freedom

Postby willie on Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:23 pm

Interloper wrote:
Like any other mental-physical process, each aspect is painstaking at first, but with repetitive practice, it eventually becomes "second nature" so that we utilize it without having to deliberate on each aspect. Think of how one learns to drive a car with manual transmission. At first, it's all about having to think through the process, and make ourselves work the clutch, move the stick shift, add the gas pedal and gradually release the clutch... all while having to pay attention to the road and the conditions. It's a lot of mental processes to keep going at the same time, like juggling multiple balls, but the human brain is naturally attuned to that kind of learning.


good post.
on one hand you have all the requirements, theories and techniques to juggle, but the other side still can steer.
willie

 

Re: Freedom

Postby Interloper on Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:37 am

willie wrote:
on one hand you have all the requirements, theories and techniques to juggle, but the other side still can steer.


Yes, and not just steer, but also be alert to changes, and to react to them instantaneously, such as a child chasing a ball into the street, a mattress blowing off the back of the pickup truck in front of you, a sudden lane-change of the vehicle next to you, a pothole or bump that wasn't visible earlier due to a dip in the road... All while being able to shift, steer, and talk to the passenger beside you.
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Re: Freedom

Postby amor on Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:28 am

Itten wrote:To Amor,
What I understand by a budo body:
High level tissue and tendon connection : one part moves all parts move
Continuous natural expression of yin and yang, macro and microcosmic energy orbits, (not metaphysical, yi informed)
Santi or Ten chi jin, heaven earth man posture attained as natural and unforced
Coiled or dragon structure, whole body poised between yin and yang activity, always on the edge of release and always returning, chan tse
Falling power always slightly ahead of rising power, successful usage of gravity and rebound
Listening power and asking power in same touch
Dan tien intelligent enough to allow intellectual activity to disappear(especially in combat)
Three alignments shoulder to hips, elbows to knees, hands to feet
intent is understood as poised condition and not as the :intention" to do something
Head suspended perineum falling.
This is a start but i think i should put more time in writing a complete list to assist my own practice but the above is good outline of the areas I am aiming at.

regards, alec

I had some difficulty picturing Gong Baozhai's open stance. I think turtle back and slightly hollowed chest are good natural expression of body yin/yang but in many practices it becomes over exaggerated. Clips under discussion now about misusage of spinal curvature.


Thanks Itten that sounds like a good brief overview of what is required of the budo body. It sounds a lot like how taichi probably was originally and budo might even be what classical or the old yang style of taichi represented. Same could be said about bagua.

About Gong Baozhai's posture I think this clip by "Mr Happeh" may go some way to answer it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cD_RNtykoY

I think developing the 'turtleback posture' is most probably the pre-requisite for doing this type of posture but in any case it seems like you would get the same workout as those old taichi classics that mention doing the form under the table
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Re: Freedom

Postby Itten on Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:13 am

OK, thanks Amor. The animation didn't really do it for me. The emphasis on skeletal structure without adding in the role of fascia and tendons left me with the view that it was, indeed, an unstable posture. That said however I am aware of the reoccurring problem with video clips that demonstrate training methods without explaining what it is supposed to be training and then showing the natural usage of that internalized body method in simulated combat. To my mind and experience there is not one traditional art that looks the same in usage as it does in training. A classic example of this is watching supposed Ba Gua sparring where the 2 guys walk the circle trying to use parts of the form. Ridiculous IMO. The coiling power developed by the training should be present throughout the whole body manifesting at the point of contact. So without feeling a practitioner of this style I find it very difficult to form anything other than a superficial opinion which is not very enthusiastic.
P.S. I'm also not a fan of the cylinder conceptualization, preferring the sphere which implies the rising and falling body quality inside vertical and horizontal movement and plane.
P.P.S. There are people out there who can make things work from very strange postures indicating high levels of internal connectivity. I have the personal experience of sitting on Akuzawa's back when he did shiko. At the time I was a fairly solid 96 kilos and he weighs maybe 75. I hung parallel to the ground with him balanced on one leg. Yes the guy is strong, but it is his cross body connectivity at work not muscular strength.
Just some thoughts,
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Re: Freedom

Postby Interloper on Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:28 am

I find it unhelpful watching any video without context. Are the people in it experienced master-level practitioners, intermediate students, or what? And, does the school or system they represent have proven internal content that is taught to all students? And, what is the talent level of the people in the video... are they qualified to represent their art in its entirety, or at least at the particular rank or degree of training they have reached thus far? Most videos do not state any of this information, so we are left to guess what level of the art, or school's/teacher's interpretation of it, is being demonstrated.

In training, various systems often have a prescribed curriculum that is designed to inculcate incremental levels of skills. The drills used to develop such skills do not necessarily look like their "real-life" application. This is especially, and specifically, true of internal training, because internal work is a separate discipline and methodology than the fighting skills of the art. It is body development, not combat training. Because this concept is alien to so many martial arts, it is impossible to see how power and structural stability can be separate from technique. (In "external" arts, the method of imparting power or force in the techniques, is inherent in the techniques themselves... such as the chambering of the hips for a karate punch, or the overt stepping movement of tenkan in contemporary aikido).

Internal artists may train fighting skills and internal body method concurrently, and apply internals to technique, but still they are completely separate aspects of the art. When they practice just the internal method, it is going to look different than practicing the external/overt mechanical skills, and even more different when the two are combined.

FWIW, I know of two internal martial arts, contemporary but developed from and based in traditional arts, that appear in combat the way they look in higher-level/advanced training. The first, a Chinese family-based art, is considered a "formless" art, in which body method is inculcated from the very beginning, and combat skills are taught only later once the unified, internal body is developed. Once the students have a level of skill in both, they train at full speed and under duress. The second art, Japanese, teaches internals concurrently with overt technique (it is a weapons-based art), and as soon as the students learn a particular kata or waza, they start to practice it at full speed and under duress.

So, practitioners of both arts look, in combat application, the way they have trained, but of course not as "perfect" in appearance as combat is chaos. Training the internal method under high stress is the key, as it is meant to inculcate the ability to maintain the body connections even when in a chaotic situation. IMO, this is more important, by far, than keeping "perfect" techniques, stepping, etc.

As for making things work when the body is out of alignment... yes. Learning and mastering the art by the rules, allows one to bend the rules. Cross-body connections allow you to "pull yourself together" structurally even when you are bent over backward. It lets you keep your center of mass in equilibrium when your head is over your "one-point" and prevent you from committing all of your mass to one side of the body. An opponent will find an empty side where he thought it would be full (committed), and a full side where he thought it would be empty. ;) Tanren (forging drills) such as the very old version (not the modern sumo one) of shiko are designed precisely to develop these connections, and there are other tanren that augment them as well.


Itten wrote:OK, thanks Amor. The animation didn't really do it for me. The emphasis on skeletal structure without adding in the role of fascia and tendons left me with the view that it was, indeed, an unstable posture. That said however I am aware of the reoccurring problem with video clips that demonstrate training methods without explaining what it is supposed to be training and then showing the natural usage of that internalized body method in simulated combat. To my mind and experience there is not one traditional art that looks the same in usage as it does in training. A classic example of this is watching supposed Ba Gua sparring where the 2 guys walk the circle trying to use parts of the form. Ridiculous IMO. The coiling power developed by the training should be present throughout the whole body manifesting at the point of contact. So without feeling a practitioner of this style I find it very difficult to form anything other than a superficial opinion which is not very enthusiastic.
P.S. I'm also not a fan of the cylinder conceptualization, preferring the sphere which implies the rising and falling body quality inside vertical and horizontal movement and plane.
P.P.S. There are people out there who can make things work from very strange postures indicating high levels of internal connectivity. I have the personal experience of sitting on Akuzawa's back when he did shiko. At the time I was a fairly solid 96 kilos and he weighs maybe 75. I hung parallel to the ground with him balanced on one leg. Yes the guy is strong, but it is his cross body connectivity at work not muscular strength.
Just some thoughts,
Alec
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Re: Freedom

Postby littlepanda on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:32 pm

Interloper wrote:
FWIW, I know of two internal martial arts, contemporary but developed from and based in traditional arts, that appear in combat the way they look in higher-level/advanced training.


Which are these two internal martial arts you are referring to? Do they have videos? It would be helpful if you could post them. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Freedom

Postby Interloper on Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:51 pm

littlepanda wrote:Which are these two internal martial arts you are referring to? Do they have videos? It would be helpful if you could post them. Thanks in advance.

.


Zhong Xin Dao/I Liq Chuan:






Hontai Hakkei Ryu Aikijujutsu (no footage at the moment of application, but there will be some in the future and when it's available I will post it):





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Re: Freedom

Postby littlepanda on Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:14 pm

Interloper,
Thanks for posting the videos

Interloper wrote:Tanren (forging drills) such as the very old version (not the modern sumo one) of shiko are designed precisely to develop these connections, and there are other tanren that augment them as well.





At 13:30 he does a shiko exercise. Is this what you are referring to as the old version of shiko?

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Re: Freedom

Postby Interloper on Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:44 am

littlepanda wrote:At 13:30 he does a shiko exercise. Is this what you are referring to as the old version of shiko?
.


More or less.
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Re: Freedom

Postby amor on Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:14 pm

Itten wrote:OK, thanks Amor. The animation didn't really do it for me. The emphasis on skeletal structure without adding in the role of fascia and tendons left me with the view that it was, indeed, an unstable posture.
P.S. I'm also not a fan of the cylinder conceptualization, preferring the sphere which implies the rising and falling body quality inside vertical and horizontal movement and plane.
P.P.S. There are people out there who can make things work from very strange postures indicating high levels of internal connectivity. I have the personal experience of sitting on Akuzawa's back when he did shiko. At the time I was a fairly solid 96 kilos and he weighs maybe 75. I hung parallel to the ground with him balanced on one leg. Yes the guy is strong, but it is his cross body connectivity at work not muscular strength.
Just some thoughts,
Alec


I don't utilize that posture either in my training but thanks for the tip concerning the sphere as opposed to the cylinder model, although I'm not really qualified to discuss the pros/cons of each model but it would be an interesting discussion in future.

But concerning the budo body, I had an old pic. lying about addressing this although I don't quite know what it is showing so perhaps you can comment on it if you understand it.

http://uploadpie.com/hNJLh


Interloper: I think you might also have an idea about what the various markings and arrows might mean as I gather you have trained in Budo so wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on this if possible. Notice how the head is down and looking right, why not in the center, why not left...interesting nonetheless.
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Re: Freedom

Postby Itten on Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:23 am

It's impossible to understand it without knowing what the artist was intending to convey, only interpretation, like a kata. That said there are things missing to my mind. One the middle area there is an up line but no down line. Without equal pressure there is no heaven earth man. The arrows are all going out, same question where are the arrows going in so that yin and yang are maintained everywhere creating a neutral or loaded point. Dan H. Often talks about the weakness of the store and release model because of the vulnerable moment after release ( that's one for the Taoist longevity alchemists) In other words you never let go of your power, issuing is returning and vice versa. As for the crossing diagram, yeah ok but it should be spriralling and wrapping as well, and the crossing is more complicated.
One of the things I learnt from Master Sam Chin which I deeply value is the idea that Yin movement towards Dan Tien stops there. Yang movement from Ming Men takes over at that point, in other words they do not bleed over into one another. If this were diagramed, very difficult, it would include all the half lines of body change, resulting in something like a suit with seams that can be stretched by must not be torn. Since I am not a student of I Liq Chuan I will defer to Interloper for her opinion.
Like all videos, katas, demonstrations and diagrams, without context and goal the meaning and method always remains obscure. The fact that some people can do what they explain is disproportionate to those who can come up with an explanation for what they do whilst actually doing something else entirely ;-)
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