A working definition of "brute force"

[willie]

Hmmmm...

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HLMq1hy95Y

The internal moves taught here are crucial to most sports. Anyone who can master those internal moves important to the sport he is engaged in will give him the tools to progress even to professional rank otherwise he will remain mediocre as an amateur. Here are two examples:

The timing of engaging arm and core to move as one unit is an art developed in playing the Tai Chi Form. In sports applications, the arm may move independent of the core before hitting to generate racket or bat speed and after the hitting as a follow through move. But during hitting, arm and core need to move as one unit to achieve the maximum power.

some examples comparing different ways of using energy/force "wu style"

note: the teacher is using "his" way of explaining what he feels he's doing.
We each have our own ways of looking at things, for example he talks about breaking force
I would say keeping the force neutral within ones self. ect.

In light of the conversation I thought this might be a good way to help explain different
view points with examples...The example used "ph" is not really so important...its only a context

[Yeung]

“So if uke grabs your wrist, open up your fingers to make difficult for him to grab you strongly, and to make it easier for you to take advantage of the contact of his grip. When you make a strike open the fingers to generate a lot of power” (Gozo Shioda and Yasuhisa Shioda; 1995 pp.44-45)

http://disarmy.org/sites/all/files/PDF/ ... Course.pdf

[Strange]

yes, so you could use this defn to classify what you see from a supposed scholarly high ground
which in fact is just a form of mental jack off

so again back to being like women folk in a market gossiping about who is what and not what;
making it like there really are people who have to live according to the standard you set.

come now, yeung, REALLY?

from the beginning, i have told you straight that your understanding of ima is all wrong.
again, you make a mistake and waste time.

what is the mountain pass/road*, defn of brute force?
if you can stop my force, my force is brute force
if you cannot stop it, it is the most exquisite and excellent force that exist for you.
can keep up with my theoretical, esoteric, fortune cookie mumbo jumbo?
you try to get hit by EMA brute force, and tell yourself it does not hurt and there is no injury and see if the pain goes again.

who the heck need you to classify?
and who the heck say you are qualified to do so?

your kungfu is all in the mind, going on round and round in your head
building castles in the air, and proclaim yourself to be king
complete and utter nonsense.

the only thing that you written that is correct is the description of Master Hui
detailing is many different studies
good kungfu is good kungfu
the practitioner with the correct understanding is wide and open in his views
and learn and appreciate others with good kungfu regardless of their martial art type.

* is as opposed to the "streets". Mountain pass/road is more hardcore and badass because
on the streets the police still might turn up, there's still that chance.
On the mountain pass? sorry my man, ain't no such thing
'stand me?

[daniel pfister]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

I would not use the technical language of "voluntary concentric muscle contraction" to define brute force because those are really the only kinds of muscle contractions humans are voluntarily capable of, so it would not help to differentiate between skilled and unskilled movement in IMA. You might focus on the term voluntary however. Those movements which we much actively think more about are less skilled (brute?) whereas movements that feel automatic are more skilled and typically more efficient.

The term brute force can be misleading in terms of translation but most writers sort of defined it as not the type of force that use by external schools. Thus skillful techniques in the external schools can still be considered as brute force.

That's the problem with trying to define brute force. It really means the type of movements that various IMA teachers don't like. And they often will say that each others movements use too much (brute) force as well, so it's pretty difficult.

Concentric muscle contraction is simply the shortening of muscle fibers, and the other alternative is lengthening of muscle fiber. And the lengthening of muscle fiber or simply stretching will result in stretch reflex or stored elastic energy, which in a way is involuntary.

The stretch relex is involuntary but you voluntarily contract the opposing muscle group to initiate it. If it was completely out of our control, then we couldn't refine it as a skill.

Maybe the concern of IMA should be in the skills to utilize stretching and muscle elasticity.

Yes, I agree. However, this is again true for all skill movement. Look at a baseball pitch, tennis serve, golf swing, etc, all those athletes become in tune with the "pre-stretch phase" of the movement that involves the elastic properties of the muscles and tendons.

I have some more thoughts on how you might attempt to define it, but it will require a longer write up. May take a few days. Not sure if anyone is interested . . .

[suckinlhbf]

Master Chen came with a Northern Shaolin, Hung Kung, and crane fist background which mostly would be classified as external style.

Was he using brute force? He is much more "internal" than those claim themselves as an internal guy. Its the body method that matters.

[Bao]

Was he using brute force? He is much more "internal" than those claim themselves as an internal guy. Its the body method that matters.

Hard to tell anything about his "internal" skill or any skill when the student show such a skill in over-acting. If they do somethings better than most internal guys, it's over acting.

[jaime_g]

This seems to be the only video with a barely decent uke
https://youtu.be/kThfOyE093A



If that's all, I dont have even a bit of interest on him

[windwalker]

Was he using brute force? He is much more "internal" than those claim themselves as an internal guy. Its the body method that matters.

Hard to tell anything about his "internal" skill or any skill when the student show such a skill in over-acting. If they do somethings better than most internal guys, it's over acting.

I would think that for those that claim any type of internal skill it should be very understandable
the how and what the teacher did to the student in the demo....

Yes it is the body / mind method that matters along with a practical way to approach, and develop it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI

[Bao]

I find it amusing that some might consider this "over acting" I would think that for those that claim any type of internal skill it should be very understandable the how what the teacher did to the student in the demo....

There's a big crowd. If there's no direct connection between the movements of teacher and student, there's mostly something artificial about it. There should be so in front of a crowd with uninitiated people, there's no way they would understand if it was too subtle. You should be able separate situation from situation. This is not intimate class room instruction.

[windwalker]

I edited my post feeling the wording was not quite right. It wasn't

Any way,,,for me what was shown was and seems to be pretty common....takes some skill to be able to do it.
I stress to those I work with the skill itself is not dependent on the other, hence no acting from the other required
the reactions are real, the situation or context may not be. It's a demo.

once developed it takes another kind of understanding of how to apply it in non demo type situations..

[Bao]

I edited my post feeling the wording was not quite right. It wasn't
.. .
I stress to those I work with the skill itself is not dependent on the other, hence no acting from the other required
the reactions are real, the situation or context may not be. It's a demo..

Fine.

A skill is a skill, if it's real no acting is required. Yet, sometimes partners, students and even teacher practice or demo in a way to make a point or isolate a reaction, or for different reasons even act it. Just like in real life every teacher has different reasons for showing what is shown and not everyone is honest. The reason for showing a skill has nothing to do with if a certain skill is real or not.

[Yeung]

“So if uke grabs your wrist, open up your fingers to make difficult for him to grab you strongly, and to make it easier for you to take advantage of the contact of his grip. When you make a strike open the fingers to generate a lot of power” (Gozo Shioda and Yasuhisa Shioda; 1995 pp.44-45)

http://disarmy.org/sites/all/files/PDF/ ... Course.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYcXkADiWE

[Yeung]

Since we are on to skills, may be one can give consideration to the skills of adherent and neutralization in martial arts.