A working definition of "brute force"

[D_Glenn]

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[jaime_g]

Yeung wrote:
Since we are on to skills, may be one can give consideration to the skills of adherent and neutralization in martial arts.

Many facets to work. I would split the sticky and dissolving skills into two big branchs. You can lead or you can follow. I prefer to lead and smother, very proactive sticking. Listening skills are great, but I prefer to disregard I like to call it autistic fighting.

[Yeung]

I have taught an autistic man doing sticking hand, so it will be interesting to hear about autistic fighting.

[jaime_g]

I have taught an autistic man doing sticking hand, so it will be interesting to hear about autistic fighting.

I use the name because it feels like wrestling with the autistic son of a friend of mine. Huge strenght and almost invulnerable to set-ups and feints, all while barely noticing you.

The feeling is very close to the skills developed through some methods of internal work. Engaging by not engaging, making people stick to you instead of you sticking to them.

[Yeung]

Very good observation, as some autistic kids know no fear. One of the causes of concentric muscle contraction is fear, thus when autistic kids stretch out their hands without fear can resulted in pure congenital strength. Practitioners of TCIMA can also generate such power. My conjecture is that the Chinese culture has resolved the problem of fear back in the dates of Laozi and confucius while the Western culture under the damnation of original sin.

[junglist]

To me brute force involves sole utilization of the outside lines of the body--the back, the deltoids, the triceps, the outer legs and part of the biceps. It occurs because of postural imbalance between the outside lines of the body and the inside lines. Wanderlei Silva, who looks strong as f***, is a good example of this kind of strength. His fighting stance shows that he is dependent on this kind of strength in his movements. Brute force is telegraphed and will always be detected by the opponent which will force him, even unconsciously, to resist. So in the end, there will be a clash of strength and whoever is the strongest wins.

On the other hand, there is internal power, which cuts through the power of the other person to move them, facilitated by a neutral body (a balanced body) that immobilizes the applied power of another person so that he can't resist your movement. That's why when someone with a neutral body punches you, it feels like a brick house just hit you and you go flying even though the guy is small--the reason being is that your body's resistance mechanism shuts down when the neutral body guy's fist lands on you and he's transferring his body mass and energy I nto you and you cannot help but "accept" the body mass and energy into your body. With brute force, you won't be able to do this because brute force activates resistance mechanisms to "meet" the power you're delivering.

The neutral body renders the other body powerless and moving the other body is a result of undetected, internal power which arises by keeping the body neutral in movement. It sounds like two sequences but they should form a seamless unity and that these two processes occur simultaneously when a person makes contact with my body. That is, keeping a neutral body naturally produces jin. This can be practice in wrist holding drills (like aiki age), push out, etc. I think it should be practiced in all kinds of positions to train the body to be able to stay neutral/produce internal power all the time.

[windwalker]

To me brute force involves sole utilization of the outside lines of the body--the back, the deltoids, the triceps, the outer legs and part of the biceps. It occurs because of postural imbalance between the outside lines of the body and the inside lines. Wanderlei Silva, who looks strong as f***, is a good example of this kind of strength. His fighting stance shows that he is dependent on this kind of strength in his movements. Brute force is telegraphed and will always be detected by the opponent which will force him, even unconsciously, to resist. So in the end, there will be a clash of strength and whoever is the strongest wins.

On the other hand, there is internal power, which cuts through the power of the other person to move them, facilitated by a neutral body (a balanced body) that immobilizes the applied power of another person so that he can't resist your movement. That's why when someone with a neutral body punches you, it feels like a brick house just hit you and you go flying even though the guy is small--the reason being is that your body's resistance mechanism shuts down when the neutral body guy's fist lands on you and he's transferring his body mass and energy I nto you and you cannot help but "accept" the body mass and energy into your body. With brute force, you won't be able to do this because brute force activates resistance mechanisms to "meet" the power you're delivering.

The neutral body renders the other body powerless and moving the other body is a result of undetected, internal power which arises by keeping the body neutral in movement. It sounds like two sequences but they should form a seamless unity and that these two processes occur simultaneously when a person makes contact with my body. That is, keeping a neutral body naturally produces jin. This can be practice in wrist holding drills (like aiki age), push out, etc. I think it should be practiced in all kinds of positions to train the body to be able to stay neutral/produce internal power all the time.

+1
nice post address many questions asked on other threads concerning force,
the differences, and why not using it feels very different
for those on the receiving end.

[junglist]

Thx.

[Yeung]

Thx.

"Brute force is telegraphed" depends on how it is executed. With my working definition, one can train to speed up concentric muscle contraction from relaxing. It is possible that practitioner can speed up this process after a period of training or reduce electromechnical delay. I am sure some members of this forum have this experience. From my observation, most practitioners of Chen Shi Taijiquan and Yiquan train in this way. Some called it Fa Jin but the concern is stiffness after the issue of force.

[junglist]

We're talking about something else then.