A working definition of "brute force"

[Yeung]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

[jaime_g]

I prefer to call it "normal" force. It can be very refined, very clever used, very powerful, but it's normal. I don't buy the idea of stupid-brute force. Many amazing guys have fought their entires lives using just normal force.

It's the kind of strenght that almost everybody has. Some guys have a lot, some very little, but it's the same feeling, the only thing that changes is intensity. Other thing is the fighting skill, but being a good fighter doesnt mean that you have different strenght.

Things like many kinds of internal force, diverse jins... are hugely varied and even contradictory, so I prefer to speak about qualities, like feeling heavy, sticky, ghostly, using spirals, whips, waves... that can be trained using many methods.

[D_Glenn]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

Clumsy Strength/ Unrefined
A person who has never used a hammer to drive in a nail will be using Zhou Li. They will be clumsily using the hammer but over compensating with strength, where it's skill wielding the hammer that is actually needed.

But a carpenter who uses a hammer for 8 hours a day will at first be using Zhou Li but after about a month or so will start finding the skill in the hammer and each blow of the hammer is 10x more powerful than a strike using Zhou Li. (A person using Zhou Li takes 20 odd blows to drive in 1 nail, a carpenter can set the nail in 3 blows.)

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[Bao]

I prefer to call it "normal" force. It can be very refined, very clever used, very powerful, but it's normal. I don't buy the idea of stupid-brute force. Many amazing guys have fought their entires lives using just normal force.

Clumsy Strength/ Unrefined
A person who has never used a hammer to drive in a nail will be using Zhou Li. They will be clumsily using the hammer but over compensating with strength, where it's skill wielding the hammer that is actually needed.

I would say that clumsy strength is "common force", or "forcing strength". Force in any kind of martial art, EMA, or IMA are different types of "functional strength". The thing is that a person who haven't practiced certain punching techniques mostly can not control the movements of the body sufficiently to punch as hard as the one who has practice to control the body. Even better example than the hammer might be the one of a saw. The person who understand the tool will let the tool do the work without forcing it. The one who don't know how to use it will use force, forcing the movements, making harder for himself and keep getting it stuck.

But this means that "functional strength" is not really about using less or more strength, it's often about using a tool or the body in another manner than using muscle strength or forcing a movement. For instance, in TCMA, striking is often nothing more than about using mass+speed. Look at a Baji or Xingyi kind of punch with whole body force. Force is not put in the fist, but in using the body to build speed. Both styles have a kind of functional use of strength. This is whole body movement and can not be referred to as "clumsy" strength or "common force". It's about methods that you need to learn, special techniques that needs to be practiced. It's not a way of striking that common people would try without practicing.

[windwalker]

Energy courses through the tissues, limbs, sinews, and vessels. Strength emerges from the blood, muscles, skin, and bones.

Therefore a strong person has an outer robustness to their skin and bones, a matter of posture, while an energized person has an inner robustness to their sinews and vessels, a matter of presence. Training the energy and blood with emphasis on the energy will empower the internal. Training the blood and energy with emphasis on the blood will enhance the external.

If you awaken to the functions of these two things, both the energy and the blood, you will naturally come to understand the basis of strength and energy.

Understanding what strength and energy are all about, you will naturally be able to distinguish between the using of strength and the moving of energy: the moving of energy will be felt in your sinews and vessels, while the using of strength will be felt in your skin and bones – extremely different things indeed.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

This reflects my views. Its not necessarily that one is better then the other. Its more to the point that they are very different ways and training.

[windwalker]

If we compare this means of increasing strength to the training of other kinds of boxing arts, with their heaving of weights and hitting of sandbags, it is completely different.

This kind of strength, called “internal power” by experts, is whole-bodied movement. The key is that wherever the whole body is applied, the whole is concentrated at a single area, not just relying on the shoulders or back, hands or feet. When this kind of internal power touches an opponent’s body, being different from ordinary strength, it can cause him to feel like he has received an electric shock.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... xperience/

Posting these in spirit of discussion,

[daniel pfister]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

I would not use the technical language of "voluntary concentric muscle contraction" to define brute force because those are really the only kinds of muscle contractions humans are voluntarily capable of, so it would not help to differentiate between skilled and unskilled movement in IMA. You might focus on the term voluntary however. Those movements which we much actively think more about are less skilled (brute?) whereas movements that feel automatic are more skilled and typically more efficient.

[Wanderingdragon]

Open and close, simply stated an explosive device is closed by nature and opened by force what is internal is the control.

[dspyrido]

Since Ali:

1. used his whole coordinated body when punching
2. developed his efficiency so that he could throw thousands of punches with relative ease and
3. could switch off someones nervous system with a single light tap

Does that make him an internal master? If the answer is no then why would he not qualify?

[MaartenSFS]

Exactly. Respect good boxing...

Also, some of the swinging Jins and Kao don't even care what they hit or worry about excessive power.

[Bao]

Since Ali:

1. used his whole coordinated body when punching
2. developed his efficiency so that he could throw thousands of punches with relative ease and
3. could switch off someones nervous system with a single light tap

Does that make him an internal master? If the answer is no then why would he not qualify?

OT. And quite trollish, imho.

The question was about how to define Li or Zhou Li. Would you define Ali's use of force as "clumsy force?" If not, why do bring him up in the topic?

"Does that make him an internal master? If the answer is no then why would he not qualify?"

No.
1. He didn't speak about using or developing Qi or Yi, and never claimed to have developed any kind of "internal" power.
2. He didn't practice any of the traditional styles that belong to the group labelled IMA.

What would be the point to label Ali as an "internal master"?

[jaime_g]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

Clumsy Strength/ Unrefined
A person who has never used a hammer to drive in a nail will be using Zhou Li. They will be clumsily using the hammer but over compensating with strength, where it's skill wielding the hammer that is actually needed.

But a carpenter who uses a hammer for 8 hours a day will at first be using Zhou Li but after about a month or so will start finding the skill in the hammer and each blow of the hammer is 10x more powerful than a strike using Zhou Li. (A person using Zhou Li takes 20 odd blows to drive in 1 nail, a carpenter can set the nail in 3 blows.)

.

But the kind of force is the same. The experienced carpenter just uses it in a more powerful, clever and skillful way.

Since Ali:

1. used his whole coordinated body when punching
2. developed his efficiency so that he could throw thousands of punches with relative ease and
3. could switch off someones nervous system with a single light tap

Does that make him an internal master? If the answer is no then why would he not qualify?

Being an awesome fighter doesnt mean that you have internal power. The world is full of amazing athletes that never trained internals. Having internal power doesnt make you a fighter, many internal guys with reall skills dont know how to fight.

The key word is different. Extremely good, powerful, efficient...dont imply "different". Any experienced martial artist have met very good and powerful guys that despite their varied skills, techniques, and levels of accomplishment all feel the same. Even within supposedly IMA schools is hard to feel "different" guys.

[D_Glenn]

My working definition of “brute force” for IMA is voluntary concentric muscle contraction. Brute force is just one of the translation or interpretation of the Chinese term of Zhuo Li拙力. This is essential for learning IMA, so any comment on Zhuo Li is welcome.

Clumsy Strength/ Unrefined
A person who has never used a hammer to drive in a nail will be using Zhou Li. They will be clumsily using the hammer but over compensating with strength, where it's skill wielding the hammer that is actually needed.

But a carpenter who uses a hammer for 8 hours a day will at first be using Zhou Li but after about a month or so will start finding the skill in the hammer and each blow of the hammer is 10x more powerful than a strike using Zhou Li. (A person using Zhou Li takes 20 odd blows to drive in 1 nail, a carpenter can set the nail in 3 blows.)

But the kind of force is the same. The experienced carpenter just uses it in a more powerful, clever and skillful way.

I forget that not everyone has worked as a framer, framing up walls of a house.
What you naturally figure out is to Fangsong (relax) your whole arm and then use the segments of the arm in a manner where it's one movement, not several parts moving. At first it will not be as powerful as using [Zhou] Li, but once it becomes a Jin then it starts increasing again. But take the hammer out of a framer's hand and he will again have a hell of a time using his arm to empty-hand hit with his fist in the same swinging motion. The mental block will again be there.

You should read this article if you haven't before: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin2.html

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[dspyrido]

OT. And quite trollish, imho.

The question was about how to define Li or Zhou Li. Would you define Ali's use of force as "clumsy force?" If not, why do bring him up in the topic?

"Does that make him an internal master? If the answer is no then why would he not qualify?"

No.
1. He didn't speak about using or developing Qi or Yi, and never claimed to have developed any kind of "internal" power.
2. He didn't practice any of the traditional styles that belong to the group labelled IMA.

What would be the point to label Ali as an "internal master"?

Confrontational? Sure. OT? Nope. Trollish? More of a devils advocate.

Clumsy force is unrefined. Do you agree Ali's application was refined force? If so then it should be easy to understand his relevance here (ie if you want to know what unrefined is then take refined & go diametrically opposite).

As for "internal master" ... if you feel that internal mastery is a title for someone who has learnt an ima brand then sure. Happy to move on.

But you mention if he spoke about qi/yi would that make him an internal master? I would start by saying internal mastery is not an oratory skill. I think of it as something that real, refined measurable power.

To make this easier what is your definitive view of what qi & yi is so that we ensure we are discussing the same concept. IMO they are labels that describe real concepts that can be measured.

Being an awesome fighter doesnt mean that you have internal power. The world is full of amazing athletes that never trained internals. Having internal power doesnt make you a fighter, many internal guys with reall skills dont know how to fight.

The key word is different. Extremely good, powerful, efficient...dont imply "different". Any experienced martial artist have met very good and powerful guys that despite their varied skills, techniques, and levels of accomplishment all feel the same. Even within supposedly IMA schools is hard to feel "different" guys.

What do you define as internals or internal power? Since the context we are talking about is internal martial arts doesn't that mean it is all based on how internal training can be used to improve fighting ability?

Beyond this is internal power different? If so ... how? It has been mentioned that being hit by an internal master is like having a current pass through you. Ali could switch someones lights off with a tap. Is that not the same?

[willie]

I think that a good view on what's brute force would be is, The old scud missile.
Once fired it has no live guidance system, where as a MX missile does.
Another way to describe it might be, Any moves that can not be changed once the initial force has started.