Refuting Hong Yixiang's expell

[Overlord]

By the time I arrived the Hong brothers had been expelled from the school (I believe that happened around 1963 or 1964). The only contact I had with Hong Yixiang was at a farewell dinner Mrs. Zhang arranged to see me off when I was preparing to leave the island. He was obviously pissed off at the favor shown to me by the Zhang family, but was basically told to shut up and behave by the others present who were friends of mine and the Zhang family: Zhong Fusheng, Liao Wuchang, Gao Daosheng, several of Master Zhang's first and second generation students, some Yi Guandao associates, as well as some native Taiwanese martial artists whose names you would not be familiar with. I believe the purpose of inviting Hong was to let him know in no uncertain terms that I was a part of the school under the Zhangs.

Confirm with Hong's family.
Hong's expell from Zhang's school is not true~
Check with Hong's students and Hong's sons.
Expelling from one's school is one serious claim~
Just to clarify this~ and return honor to the master.

Cheers,

[willie]

Expelling from one's school is one serious claim~

But I've been expelled over and over again. I take it as a compliment. LOL!

[Josealb]

Confirm with Hong's family.
Hong's expell from Zhang's school is not true~
Check with Hong's students and Hong's sons

Not to stir the pot or anything, but wouldnt you think that his own family, students, and general holders of his legacy might just be, perhaps, maybe just a little bit, the tiniest bit biased?

[GrahamB]

Just so you know, I have created my own school, from which everybody here is automatically expelled, by default. Obviously.

[Josealb]

One of those teachers that starts everyone with an F, and makes them work for it, eh?

[GrahamB]

Welcome to my school

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXtjMoHKWLc

[kenneth fish]

Dan Miller interviewed Mrs. Zhang (and also senior students of Master Zhang) and not only confirmed that Hong had been expelled, he was told in great detail of the events leading up to it. When Dan went to interview the Hong brothers (separately) they also confirmed Hong Yixiang's expulsion from the school. As noted above, I think there might be a bit of bias and desire to "correct" history in the family's version of events. As the principle figures are long gone, as are most of Master Zhang's students, that is not a surprise.

[willie]

Just so you know, I have created my own school, from which everybody here is automatically expelled, by default. Obviously.

and just when I was starting to think that you were good too, Damn it!

[Overlord]

Dan Miller interviewed Mrs. Zhang (and also senior students of Master Zhang) and not only confirmed that Hong had been expelled, he was told in great detail of the events leading up to it. When Dan went to interview the Hong brothers (separately) they also confirmed Hong Yixiang's expulsion from the school. As noted above, I think there might be a bit of bias and desire to "correct" history in the family's version of events. As the principle figures are long gone, as are most of Master Zhang's students, that is not a surprise.

Ken,
1, Did you or anyone else such as Dan verify this with master Zhang personally?
2, Did you or anyone else such as Dan verify this with master Hong personally?
3, If Hong was expelled from Zhang's school, why was he even invited to your farewell party? It doesn't make sense if he was no longer part of Yizong school~ and with his English proficiency, I think he be careless about who you are and what you do~

[yeniseri]

There are certain topics in CMA circles that are left unsaid and undone
That is just the way it is and I realize it is anathema to a 'Western schema' of transparency but the former is its own transparency.
If one sees the formation of things and it gives off that negative aura or other than normal (whether behaviour, attitudeional or way of doing things) just drink the tea and enjoy the freedom of nothingness.

I attempted to ask some questions some years ago about certain Yizong memebrs and the message was clear that each party manuevered adroitly and came back on course, each with their own modus operandi of avoidance Weird, nonetheless. Better to leave good enough alone! Jus' saying

[Overlord]

I guess Yeniseri is right~
I was told just few minutes ago not to clarify on this issues
for very good reasons~

Over

[kenneth fish]

I have answered your questions in a PM.

[Rhen]

So what was the verdict on the Hong Expulsion?

[Overlord]

Rhen,

No, it is irrelevant to to the training today~
But, since a master name is tainted by an allegation, it is important to verify the truth~

AFAIK, Hong was in very good terms with Master Zhang in 1967，
he was invited for Baishi ceremony when Su Dongcheng, Luo Dexiu, and the rest of second batch students enrolled in Yizong Tangshoudao.
After that, they were still in good terms every year as Zhang took his son to Hong's house for banquet during Zhahandan festival (炸寒單）.

So yes, Baishi ceremony is of significance during the time and yes if student was expelled, the same ceremonial process is needed, Baishitie (拜師帖) will be returned.

Hong further his learning with Chen Panling to focus on Xingyi. Chen didn't alter Hong's form, but added Yi (意）or intend to his training. Hong later learnt Xiao Jiu Tian (小九天）and Zhi Niuzhu (制牛術).
Hong did change and refine his Xingyi, but did not alter any of his Bagua learnt from Zhang.

So you see, the details are relevant, it made everything or perspective changes.
There are others things I reserve so no one's name is damaged. Hong was a kind and soft person, he will do so too.

Hong's family gave so much to Zhang (and others), wealth, name and family.
This is not bragging, it's a fact.
So I don't see any good reason or higher moral ground for Zhang for expelling Hong.
It doesn't make any sense!
If there was an expulsion, there should be a time, date and a very good reason to do so. Of course witness.

Over

[MaartenSFS]

Traditionally, in China, taking on a disciple or disowning one was a very personal thing. Some masters are still very serious about this. I really don't think that it's any of our business to pry - disrespectful, even. The facts won't change. Masters are people. We weren't there. Good luck with your training.