Use his strength against him

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Use his strength against him

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:01 pm

Good article and some food for thought

http://m.fightland.vice.com/blog/wushu- ... ng-between
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby RobP3 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:18 pm

He is wrong about the Systema clips, one is using tension, the other support. And both are demos of a principle not a fight. Granted people can lose sight of what is important and then the drill becomes the territory rather than the map...but not in the case of those two.
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby WVMark on Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:55 pm

He doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Ueshiba's aikido. Ueshiba talked about being the Universe and when people came into contact with him, they became part of his universe. There wasn't any connecting to their center. There wasn't any using their force against them as the article explains it. Ueshiba talked about ka and mi, yin and yang, in and yo, Izanami and Izanagi. Opposing forces to create aiki. Ueshiba reportedly said, “Aiki is a means of achieving harmony with another person so that you can make them do what you want.” (reference from Ellis Amdur's Dueling with O-Sensei). Modern Aikido likes to use an opponent's energy against them and then take advantage of that. There is a vast difference in the two. The former, you make them do what you want with aiki (Want to know more on Ueshiba's definition of that term? Read Sangenkai blogs. http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/ ) The latter relies upon the attacker's attack vector, body positioning, timing, weight placement, etc.

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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:36 am

There are some good points, though he points out things and problems that are quite obvious IMHO. Nothing wrong with that.

Though I wonder why "everyone" just keep repeating "this kind of practice doesn't work" instead of examining "what can I learn from this kind of practice". From my own experience, the top notch people from any kind of sport, style or tradition seem to be the most open ones and most willing to test different things. Negativity and smallmindedness never made anyone great. Just sayin'....
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:45 am

Thanks guys,

As usual for his column, he's pointing out the very obvious faults in martial arts. And let's be honest - it's a pretty easy target, so it's not a hard thing to do. We could all write the same article. Maybe it doesn't even need to be done (as you say Bao) because it's too obvious a thing to point out (and let's not forget that the 'silly' stuff may be performing a useful social function, which is probably more valuable to modern life than learning how to break necks anyway), but I think the overall point of the article is fair though. As you say Rob it's all too easy in martial arts to start mistaking the drill for the territory, not the map. Especially as you move further and further away from the founder in time. Three generations down the line everything seems to devolve into mush. Then something new comes along. But this is always the way in all of human history. E.g. Tai chi turned to mush, and Systema appeared to fill that gap - lol :)

Bad times - Leader appears - Revolution! Overturns status quo - the way becomes popular - the good times - people get rich, soft and decadent - and repeat....

"History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes going up." - Voltaire

Rob, I'd agree that the clips he chose of Systema did not really support his argument. Odd that he chose those two clips as the MR one is all contact stuff and you can see that it's using a lot of resistance, and the MW one is equally obvious about what is going on. I suspect he just found the first two he could.

(Btw - That clip of the guy blowing out his own knee by lifting an imaginary box is truly astounding though! I've no idea of the context of what's going on there or what art he's from, but man, that was sad!)

Mark, the only person who knows what Ueshiba's Aikido actually was.... Was Ueshiba, and he's dead. That leaves it open for any teacher to try to own it with their version of the truth(tm) for whatever reason suits - usually financial. There are hundreds of interpretations of what the truth(tm) is with Aikido out there. It's pretty easy to interpret whatever Ueshiba said to fit whatever story you like. I'm not that interest in it myself. Buyer beware!

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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby Interloper on Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:01 am

GrahamB wrote:Mark, the only person who knows what Ueshiba's Aikido actually was.... Was Ueshiba, and he's dead. That leaves it open for any teacher to try to own it with their version of the truth(tm) for whatever reason suits - usually financial. There are hundreds of interpretations of what the truth(tm) is with Aikido out there. It's pretty easy to interpret whatever Ueshiba said to fit whatever story you like. I'm not that interest in it myself. Buyer beware!

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Not quite true. People who have aiki, as defined by Daito-ryu, have a pretty good idea of what Ueshiba's aikido actually was. They can't decipher all of the philosophical and artistic stuff or personal thoughts that were in Ueshiba's head, of course, but the technical aspects of what he did are knowable, tangible, and reproducible.
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby Chris Li on Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 am

GrahamB wrote:Mark, the only person who knows what Ueshiba's Aikido actually was.... Was Ueshiba, and he's dead. That leaves it open for any teacher to try to own it with their version of the truth(tm) for whatever reason suits - usually financial. There are hundreds of interpretations of what the truth(tm) is with Aikido out there. It's pretty easy to interpret whatever Ueshiba said to fit whatever story you like. I'm not that interest in it myself. Buyer beware!

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Graham


That's a very common argument when this topic comes up, but it's really a logical fallacy (the inflation of conflict fallacy, sometimes called the continuum fallacy) that assumes that because experts disagree that no conclusions can be drawn and the entire discussion is pointless. In other words, that argument is fallacious.

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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:13 am

Lol. Mentioning Aikido is like death by a thousand nerds. ;D Like I said, I'm not really that interested ;)
Last edited by GrahamB on Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby willie on Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:43 am

Not true. I know an Aikido master who went to learn MMA at my old school.
He got his MMA black belt and is a master of Aikido.
He was able to use his Aikido in class once in a while.
What happens is that the realness of MMA forced his Aikido to become realer.
So that just goes to show that "the more styles you know..."
Last edited by willie on Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby yeniseri on Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:19 pm

Easier said than done as many people will not be aware of how this is to be accomplished.
That is why I like and prefer the physical conditiong drills to be the modus operandi of skill acquisition. There must be 2 person contact despite words to the contrary that form only will develop martial 'talent". ;D
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby Trip on Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:45 pm

GrahamB wrote:Thanks guys,

As usual for his column, he's pointing out the very obvious faults in martial arts. ...
but I think the overall point of the article is fair though.


How is the article fair?
How is it fair to criticize, mock other arts that he clearly doesn’t understand?
While he doesn’t bring up one fault in the arts he shows some understanding of?

Like so many others, his sole focus is on the misrepresentation of the arts he does not find practical.
Last edited by Trip on Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby RobP3 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:10 am

I'd be more impressed if he went and trained with all the people he puts down, then speaks from experience. It's not like they are hide to find or inaccessible. I prefer show rather than tell I guess
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby Ian on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:30 am

willie wrote:He got his MMA black belt
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby middleway on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:39 am

Ian wrote:
willie wrote:He got his MMA black belt


Haha ... Sounds legit. 8-)
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Re: Use his strength against him

Postby willie on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:42 am

Ian wrote:
willie wrote:He got his MMA black belt


That's right. His name was Lamar. He became an instructor there.
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