Rou Quan/ neigong article

[cloudz]

Not sure if this has been posted before (though I recall Sal C. talking about his research here), but I found it pretty interesting read as I came across it just recently. I'm aware Devlin has posted about Shen Quan and the (Taoist) sect that influenced Neijia in and around Beijing. It seems to me though that this fusion of neigong and martial arts was going on well before those dates/times.

By Sal Canzonieri

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... Boxing.htm

Of course we all know it all came from our great grand poobah master Zhang Sanfeng anyway

The Rou Gong sets are very like much like Taoist neigong in their attributes, so perhaps this connection is originally from Zhang Sanfeng's Wudang Mountain Taoist transmission of information after all. Thus it entered Shaolin, was lost by end of the Yuan Dynasty during the destruction of the monastery, entered the countryside and passed to the people, and finally was reintroduced into Shaolin, and perhaps modified over time, by the 1400s of the Ming Dynasty.

[willie]

Not sure if this has been posted before (though I recall Sal C. talking about his research here), but I found it pretty interesting read as I came across it just recently. I'm aware Devlin has posted about Shen Quan and the (Taoist) sect that influenced Neijia in and around Beijing. It seems to me though that this fusion of neigong and martial arts was going on well before those dates/times.

By Sal Canzonieri

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAart ... Boxing.htm

Of course we all know it all came from our great grand poobah master Zhang Sanfeng anyway

The Rou Gong sets are very like much like Taoist neigong in their attributes, so perhaps this connection is originally from Zhang Sanfeng's Wudang Mountain Taoist transmission of information after all. Thus it entered Shaolin, was lost by end of the Yuan Dynasty during the destruction of the monastery, entered the countryside and passed to the people, and finally was reintroduced into Shaolin, and perhaps modified over time, by the 1400s of the Ming Dynasty.

Hi Clouds, I had the opportunity to learn a modified version of Zhang Sanfeng's Taiji. I have to say that it is more enjoyable
to practice then any other form that I learned yet. There is something special about it... I don't have the applications of the form though,
so I just train that one for qi, health/spirit.
But like I said, It does definitely brighten up the most stressful of days.

[Yeung]

“If indeed the Rou Gong and Rou Quan were developed before the Qing Dynasty, then without these neigong sets there would not be any Taiji Quan, Xinyi/Xingyi Quan, and Bagua Zhang today”（ Salvatore Canzonieri).

[Yeung]

“If indeed the Rou Gong and Rou Quan were developed before the Qing Dynasty, then without these neigong sets there would not be any Taiji Quan, Xinyi/Xingyi Quan, and Bagua Zhang today”（ Salvatore Canzonieri).

The claim of stretching exercise or soft exercise can be traced back to the Yinshu (The Pulling Book) dating to the second century BC. And Shaolin Temple was no.t around then.

[wayne hansen]

Ba duan chin as I understand it was not developed thru Shaolin although many adopted it
It came from the same Taoist adept who invented the tai chi ruler
Even though many tai chi schools teach the ruler it was developed seperatly

[cloudz]

“If indeed the Rou Gong and Rou Quan were developed before the Qing Dynasty, then without these neigong sets there would not be any Taiji Quan, Xinyi/Xingyi Quan, and Bagua Zhang today”（ Salvatore Canzonieri).

The claim of stretching exercise or soft exercise can be traced back to the Yinshu (The Pulling Book) dating to the second century BC. And Shaolin Temple was no.t around then.

Yea that line raised my eyebrows too. I'm not so sure how that claim works exactly. It seems to suggest that neigong/martial neigong didn't exist beyond this rou gong, rou quan and shaolin temple in a certain time period. Which is a bit odd and doesn't sound right. Though I could be misunderstanding..

[Yeung]

The idea of doing forms slowly is not new, and
Pak Hok Pai "Needles In Cotton" 白鹤派棉里針 is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOTkv0o47RA
Uploaded on Jun 5, 2007
Tibetan Pak Hok Pai soft form "Needles In Cotton", demonstrated by Master Ho Kwong Yik, Instructor of Singapore Moh Poon Pak Hok. 西藏白鹤派柔拳棉里針，由新加坡务本白鹤教练 何广益师父示范。
欲多了解务本白鹤: To know more about Moh Poon Pak Hok :
www.facebook.com/mohpoonpakhok

[Yeung]

The administrators of China think that Taijiquan is just doing Shaolin Martial Arts slowly or softly, and this attribute to the success of Taijiquan became a nationwide exercise. Because they just turn PE teachers and Shaolin practitioners into Taijiquan teachers overnight so to speak, since most of them can learn forms easily. At the end of the day they realized that they have problems in advancing Taijiquan as a martial arts .

[Bao]

“If indeed the Rou Gong and Rou Quan were developed before the Qing Dynasty, then without these neigong sets there would not be any Taiji Quan, Xinyi/Xingyi Quan, and Bagua Zhang today”（ Salvatore Canzonieri).

The claim of stretching exercise or soft exercise can be traced back to the Yinshu (The Pulling Book) dating to the second century BC. And Shaolin Temple was no.t around then.

Yea that line raised my eyebrows too. I'm not so sure how that claim works exactly. It seems to suggest that neigong/martial neigong didn't exist beyond this rou gong, rou quan and shaolin temple in a certain time period. Which is a bit odd and doesn't sound right. Though I could be misunderstanding..

I think he means that many of the martial arts movement's in Neijia comes from rou gong.

And besides, even "Shaolin" arts are much older than the shaolin temple. Most things called shaolin today are variations of Changquan, not the arts that what was originally labled as "Shaolin arts". T'aI Chi Ch'uan is nothing but a modern collection of older stuff, movements and practicing methods that comes from older Shaolin and both older and newer Taoist arts. There is absolutely nothing original or new in Tai Chi that can not be found in Shaolin or in neidan similar practices.

[cloudz]

Hi Clouds, I had the opportunity to learn a modified version of Zhang Sanfeng's Taiji. I have to say that it is more enjoyable
to practice then any other form that I learned yet. There is something special about it... I don't have the applications of the form though,
so I just train that one for qi, health/spirit.
But like I said, It does definitely brighten up the most stressful of days.

Thanks for sharing that Willie, good stuff.

[northern_mantis]

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

So in a nutshell, is the article suggesting that Rou Quan is just an internal expression of the Shaolin longfist sets or is it a style of boxing with it's own specific sets or a combination of both of these things?

It's not a huge leap to suggest there was some exchange between Shaolin and the Neijia, particularly Chen Style Taiji due the geography of the Chen village.

[Bao]

Interesting stuff, thanks for posting.

So in a nutshell, is the article suggesting that Rou Quan is just an external expression of the Shaolin longfist sets or is it a style of boxing with it's own specific sets or a combination of both of these things?

Rouquan is an individual shaolin set, not the oldest, but earlier than what today is called longfist.

It's not a huge leap to suggest there was some exchange between Shaolin and the Neijia, particularly Chen Style Taiji due the geography of the Chen village.

Chen style expression is much closer to modern longfist than to traditional shaolin. Older traditional shaolin is more close to small or middle fram Yang tcc or Wu ttc than to modern Changquan. Chen tai chi' common expression as it is today is a modern mix between tai chi and shaolin longfist. Yang and wu tai chi is closer to original tai chi, probably also closer to what Chen Wangting taught.

[yeniseri]

It's not a huge leap to suggest there was some exchange between Shaolin and the Neijia, particularly Chen Style Taiji due the geography of the Chen village.

Exactly! Chen shi taijiquan "borrowed", despite being over 500 years old (they moved from Shaanxi province to Henan province and incorporated Shaolin hand methods of the day (whatveer they were called back then and over time, with the Li Family (stated to be no longer affiliated with Chenjiagou) and this is what we have today. Remember that there were at least 3 Chang Sanfengs of that time in various centuries

[rojcewiczj]

I spent about six months training Wugulun Shaolin methods under Wu Nanfang in China. What Wu Nanfang teachs is that the original shaolin movements should generally be practiced slowly and gently in a full range. Focus is on the
dynamics of the whole bodies movement, moving towards total integration of mass, of energy, of intent, till the will and body are one: XinYiBa. Practicing the movement is simply not used as a strenuous exercise but more of a gentle exercise with coordination in mind. Wu Nanfang, who's great great grandfather was Wugulun, once told me that many movements in the forms/drills came from doing manual labor, for example pulling water up from the well, and that it would be better for our development if we would just spend a lot of time pulling up water from a well, instead of just practicing the motion for it! haha, this to me is the wisdom of Shaolin: its better to do the real thing than pretend. Be real about it. Soft or hard? if your just stepping around waving your arms in the air why do you think this will condition you in an exceptional way? If you get a forty pound kettle-bell and every day you lift it, throw it, crouch and step with it, then your body will change and you will have a new body, with muscles that move it with a new power. My experience in China was that traditional Shaolin was more of a cross-fit then a boxing school, more of a gauntlet of conditioning, then an arena of combat. The culture of movement crystallized in the forms is only one important, integrative aspect of the training, one in which we come to better understand ourselves.

[yeniseri]

I spent about six months training Wugulun Shaolin methods under Wu Nanfang in China. What Wu Nanfang teachs is that the original shaolin movements should generally be practiced slowly and gently in a full range. Focus is on the
dynamics of the whole bodies movement, moving towards total integration of mass, of energy, of intent, till the will and body are one: XinYiBa. Practicing the movement is simply not used as a strenuous exercise but more of a gentle exercise with coordination in mind. Wu Nanfang, who's great great grandfather was Wugulun, once told me that many movements in the forms/drills came from doing manual labor, for example pulling water up from the well, and that it would be better for our development if we would just spend a lot of time pulling up water from a well, instead of just practicing the motion for it! haha, this to me is the wisdom of Shaolin: its better to do the real thing than pretend. Be real about it. Soft or hard? if your just stepping around waving your arms in the air why do you think this will condition you in an exceptional way? If you get a forty pound kettle-bell and every day you lift it, throw it, crouch and step with it, then your body will change and you will have a new body, with muscles that move it with a new power. My experience in China was that traditional Shaolin was more of a cross-fit then a boxing school, more of a gauntlet of conditioning, then an arena of combat. The culture of movement crystallized in the forms is only one important, integrative aspect of the training, one in which we come to better understand ourselves.

An excellent point that many miss, or are not aware of, or they just do not understand the background of CMA.
CMA was the domain of the 'underclass'. the dregs, the agricultural workers, carpenters, etc so each person brought their own individual skillset per manual labour requirement as opposed to the Confucian exam takers and those who belonged to a system of monarchy control. The 1950's re-engineering of CMA damaged the old so that the new would become the rule of the day so much that when one sees the competitive sphere, the nandu requirements given too much of performance art atmopshere bordering on gymnastic while lacking martial utility. There is no doubt that the movement are beautiful and flowery!