What is not brute force?

[BruceP]

The type of force used to pick carrots from heavy clay soil

Pu

[Wanderingdragon]

Probably all true words but quite a lot of them. I think it all boils down to one thing, learn an art to the point you know how to use the art. Don't fix it, don't change it, don't fill in the gaps that you percieve to be there, learn the art to the point of understanding. Simply, these are from throng arts.

[Niall Keane]

Probably all true words but quite a lot of them. I think it all boils down to one thing, learn an art to the point you know how to use the art. Don't fix it, don't change it, don't fill in the gaps that you percieve to be there, learn the art to the point of understanding. Simply, these are from throng arts.

I half agree, totally with your first point on learning to the point of practical usage, but your second seems anti-evolutionary? after all none of these arts arrived in a dream as complete packages. as for who might be qualified to alter and design and imput in a progressive manner, well.... evolution takes care of that too. look at MMA and look at most TCMA which has become a fun childminding service.

[willie]

you seem sincere willie, so I'll take a stab at it...

I am. Have been for a long time.
I realize that I'm not Chinese, I did not grow up in China, I wasn't exposed to Chinese folklore as a child.
They grow up with Buddha, immortals and religions other then Christian beliefs.

So when these types of thing come into play, I just say, I don't know. I'm not for it or against it, but I'm not stupid either.
I can see when people are faking. I'm a realest.

I have never seen EF work on stopping anyone. But I have seen healing done with things similar to it.
These arts are too ancient and too foreign to be completely closed minded.

[BruceP]

I've shown total beginners how to cut perfect mortis and tenon joints in learning basic chisel work. I always start with the mortis and let its finished size dictate the final fit of the tenon as most folks find the tenon easier to make to size than the other way round.

The sharper the chisel, the better. Aim small, miss small.

[Niall Keane]

...
I realize that I'm not Chinese, I did not grow up in China, I wasn't exposed to Chinese folklore as a child.
They grow up with Buddha, immortals and religions other then Christian beliefs....

don't get fooled, getting hung up on that, I've had to teach a lot of Chinese about their martial culture which includes references to daoism and literature.

But hey, I'm Irish and I can count on one hand how many of my countrymen know more than the bare basics about Gaelic culture and beliefs.

Even take modern Anglo-centric political, filmatic and written culture....

so ...

Last week I pull into a petrol station to fill the tank... I'm wearing a T-Shirt that borrows from sports like Football, Basketball etc.. It has the number "84" in large letters and "Orwell" written over it.
Now, granted in gealic football or soccer you have less than 20 players including subs, so the number 84 never applies.

The lad behind the counter, who owns the station, I know for a while, he can be witty, and has a clever turn of phrase. So, I'm saying he's no dunce.
Anyway, he asks me "what's 84?"
I answer... "Orwell 1984".
"Who's Orwell?" with sincerity.
"The book" I said, "same guy who wrote Animal Farm, you know the cartoon version? "
Blank, somewhat embarrassed, somewhat who's this freak who reads books before me, kinda look....

There you have it... you can bet this lad has watched "Celebrity Big Brother" on TV once or twice, but clearly hasn't joined the dots. But perhaps there are no dots (culture) to join? Clearly the creators of the Reality TV series expected people to be familiar with Orwell and his novel 1984. With neo-liberal economics, bought and corrupt politics and perpetual wars on terror, reference is made daily to Orwell in our media and social networks. I had assumed everyone was familiar with animal farm, at least the cartoon version, and its famous "some animals are more equal than others" slogan. Aren't they?

But not this guy, I may aswell have said "Chang San feng, Nei Jia Chuan" as "Orwell 1984".

The sad thing is we all know deep down, as evidenced by the stupid things people say and do, that the vast, vast majority in any culture, martial or otherwise are, to borrow the colloquial expression: "thick as pigshit"!

Don't worry about not having grown up amongst a particular culture, most who have are blind to it and shaped by it, only in the most superficial and truly ignorant ways.

These days, with fastfood zombie universal culture all pervasive, any real immersion in an alternative requires deliberate study and effort even for natives!

[Wanderingdragon]

[quote="Niall Keane"][quote="Wanderingdragon"]Probably all true words but quite a lot of them. I think it all boils down to one thing, learn an art to the point you know how to use the art. Don't fix it, don't change it, don't fill in the gaps that you percieve to be there, learn the art to the point of understanding. Simply, these are from throng arts.[/quote]

I half agree, totally with your first point on learning to the point of practical usage, but your second seems anti-evolutionary? after all none of these arts arrived in a dream as complete packages. as for who might be qualified to alter and design and imput in a progressive manner, well.... evolution takes care of that too. look at MMA and look at most TCMA which has become a fun childminding service.[/quote]

The evolutionary process is in the understanding not the technique. There are only so many variations in technique, realizing we all have only two legs , two arms , and so on. I will also use your example of MMA , once the fighters that wish to go further than the professional and entertainment aspects most undoubtedly find themselves gravitating towards the traditional.

[Steve James]

I've shown total beginners how to cut perfect mortis and tenon joints in learning basic chisel work.

But, first you teach them how to use the ruler (from a former carpenter

[Niall Keane]

Probably all true words but quite a lot of them. I think it all boils down to one thing, learn an art to the point you know how to use the art. Don't fix it, don't change it, don't fill in the gaps that you percieve to be there, learn the art to the point of understanding. Simply, these are from throng arts.

I half agree, totally with your first point on learning to the point of practical usage, but your second seems anti-evolutionary? after all none of these arts arrived in a dream as complete packages. as for who might be qualified to alter and design and imput in a progressive manner, well.... evolution takes care of that too. look at MMA and look at most TCMA which has become a fun childminding service.

The evolutionary process is in the understanding not the technique. There are only so many variations in technique, realizing we all have only two legs , two arms , and so on. I will also use your example of MMA , once the fighters that wish to go further than the professional and entertainment aspects most undoubtedly find themselves gravitating towards the traditional.

What's that? Oh? I see you have the same hymn sheet!

[Niall Keane]

I've shown total beginners how to cut perfect mortis and tenon joints in learning basic chisel work.

But, first you teach them how to use the ruler (from a former carpenter

I bet no joiner spends their lifetime focusing solely on ruler use and designing all practice time to enhance such and never going near a saw it chissel for 10 years and never actually building a piece of furniture?
Because making stuff as practice is so inferior to focusing on how the ruler connects to the yi....

[Yeung]

Hasn't anyone brought up the old "4 ozs v 1,000 lbs" (or taels and catties)? Or using "yin to overcome yang", and all those traditional sayings. Do they have any relation to what is meant by brute force? Is "brute" force fundamentally different as far as "force" is concerned? Is it really important to differentiate?

Which would be better to have against Lesnar or Overeem, for ex.?

The various angles of entry or impact to an income force can illustrate the various forces required to deflect or even borrow a force so to speak. These are examples of skill rather than what is not brute force. Maybe the question should be, is there a difference in the manipulation of force or forces in IMA?

[Steve James]

I bet no joiner spends their lifetime focusing solely on ruler use and designing all practice time to enhance such and never going near a saw it chissel for 10 years and never actually building a piece of furniture?

No, but they must learn how to measure correctly first before they know where to cut. I was half-joking because the saying is "measure twice, cut once." Fwiw, no house framer can work without knowing how to use a framing square, and fine cabinetry woodwork requires a high degree of skill in very basic operations. The difference is often measured in millimeters, not centimeters or meters, and it's easy to miss the mark.

[BruceP]

But, first you teach them how to use the ruler (from a former carpenter

Probably teach them to spell mortise/mortice properly while I'm at it

...and fine cabinetry woodwork requires a high degree of skill in very basic operations. The difference is often measured in millimeters, not centimeters or meters, and it's easy to miss the mark

Yep - Aim small, miss small. Framing is usually within a tenth or eighth but prints give dimensions in millimeter these days. Joinery is within thousandths.

I always just use the chisel edge to mark the lines (hate pencils) and match the width of the mortis to that of the chisel and one third the thickness of the stock. Length is usually twice the width and sometimes triple for proportional aesthetics. I hardly ever use a ruler if I can use the dimensions of the chisel(s) to count off the work.

Sensitive pressure without over-committing to each pass of the chisel is the most difficult thing to master. Impatience is the main obstacle to developing sensitive pressure because most beginners are focused on the completed cut even before they start. Neutral and still has to be reset before each pass. After a while, neutral and still becomes the only way to approach the work.

"High degree of skill in very basic operations" is apropos to the notions of what is and isn't brute force in the analogies of tool use as it relates to learning to 'fight'. The best and quickest way to develop good joinery is to learn on relatively soft, straight-grained material. Brute force is abandoned very quickly and never becomes a habit because it's never needed. Patience, neutrality, stillness and intent are practiced in a careful and mindful way. Grain and character of woods are more easily understood by following rather than leading. People already know how to hack and chop. Chisel work offers a slow-motion view of what is actually going on between edge and wood in the actions of hacking and chopping - where you can get your face in there and see the edge doing its thing.

[Steve James]

Yeah, I'd use the marking gauge instead of ruler, depending on the tolerances. At carpenter's college, (NYC District Council of Carpenters Labor Technical College) we learned hand tools before using machines. Those blunt pencils worked fine --just leave the line. Anyway, I found that hand planing was the most difficult to master. Anyway, I later worked for Hara fine woodworking in the 70s. Completely different stuff; we worked with exotic woods from lignum vitae to cocobola, Brazilian rosewood, teak, etc. The work was so fine that pencils were out of the question. But, measuring mistakes could run into the thousands. So, knowing the material was the most important aspect of the job. Over a beer one day, I'll admit to a few of my screw ups.

At any rate, at some point, it does go beyond measurement, even skill, and becomes art. If you know how to saw well, the saw will stay sharper longer and your cuts will be better. If you jam the blade, or try to use brute force, the blade will bind, the cut won't be true, and you'll to do a lot more work correcting the errors. I've been on lots of jobs, and went from being the "young boy" to a mechanic; and in that time I'd never seen a new guy just pick up a saw and be able to use it correctly the first time. It was always "brute" force. A journeyman using the same saw could go through the same piece in a few strokes. He might have had bigger muscles too, but that wasn't it.

[Steve James]

For BruceP