Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Bugang on Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:42 am

Hey, the Question popped up in the "internal before external" thread http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12497&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90&sid=67ffa1693f0a0041ae8cb93f73d97a0e about turning the Foot on the Ball or the Heeel or otherwise?

There has already been some discussion but I think it might be interesting for a lot of us who probaly dont find it there, so it could have a thread of its own.

To (ort of!) ) sum up what were the main points of discussion

we have
the "Front-Turners" who think this is the only way to be agile and not get stuck in their movement
and
the "Heel-Turners" who claim this sort of Rooting is the only way to generate enough Power (which for them is not the kinetic Kind of Power but the Structural Power needed to properly borrow Energy)
Positon One says: In the past 2 days, I have tried to turn on my heel for at least a 100 times. everytime I have the feeling that my foot was "stucked" on the ground as if somone is pulling on my leg back. It's not a good feeling at all.
Position Two answers:
See John to me feeling stuck to the ground is a great feeling. It is the third most common thing my teacher tells us to do. Basically it's "More tuck in, more round, feel stuck to the ground". But it is all a matter of what you use it for I suppose. In our system we want to be able to be stuck to the ground at any given time, whether attacking, yielding, whatever.

So far my very poor summary and citations, as mentioned you can find the discussion beginning at http://www.rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12497&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=75&sid=67ffa1693f0a0041ae8cb93f73d97a0e

I have studied in two different traditions of which one turns mostly on the ball, the other always on the heel. I can see both points of the discutants above and can attest that from the focus they respectively have on agility or rooting they are in a way both right. Goddamm, stuck now?

I think there is more to be said about it.

Point 1 (no particular order, just letting ideas flow):
Do you too have the impression that turning the back foot on the ball gives more the feeling of pushing (say in brush knee in taijiquan) more downwards while with turning on the heel the push has easily more of a rising quality?

Point 2:
My feeling is that while pivoting on the heel compressses energy more into the front foot (which might be the reason why those who advocate Power Pushing and Peng Jing strongly, do it that way), pivoting on the ball results more in a straight "Power-Tangent" from the pushing hand side of the slightly circling body? (I know this Pont might be very subjective, but physically at least not wrong)
http://fr.maths.free.fr/maths/mnr/qt-revis/geometr1/image51.gif

Point 3:
I am kind of sure it also depends on from where to where (how much degrees) you pivot the foot. If,s say you turn from 90 degrees to 45 degrees or even just 60 degrees, turning on the heel is appropriate, because it is hard to stretch the already very open Kwa even more, which would be required if you turn on the front foot and so enlarge the stance. If, on the other hand you turn, say, from 45 dgrees to straigth like they do in wu style taijiquan this would be very odd to do on the heel in a big stance as the mobility of the calves limits the moovement.
To sum this point up I have seen some people starting the pivot on the heel and finishing it on the ball wich would be consistent with this Point.

Point 4:
Some Traditions (of Taijiquan) speak of the inner heel as the "Power Point", some emphasize Yongquan as liveliest "energy center". Maybe they reaally experience it that way? - probably because of their training habits???

So much for now, I am curious about what you have to say.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 01, 2016 2:37 pm

The rather strict way of transferring weight in a tai chi form is about practice how to "distinguishing full and empty". You take your weight to the rear foot, pivot on the heel and transfer the weight in order to change into another stance. This pivot thing is also a consequence of keeping the centerline straight and turning around it. So it's about form practice, form practice according to tai chi form principles. IMO it's not necessary to complicate the issue further. :)
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:29 pm

Try it on a slippery floor and you will see why
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Dmitri on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:33 am

... and then try it on a surface with very high friction.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:48 am

Might be overthinking it a bit. I'm with Nike. Just do it.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby amor on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:29 am

GrahamB wrote:Might be overthinking it a bit. I'm with Nike. Just do it.


I think Bugang might have a point. For a training session (as in not fighting) like in static posture where the feet are concerned you would be try to 'join' your structure by utilising the various parts of the feet.
Bugang I agree with you that pushing on the heel does create a sense of rising and pushing on the balls do have a 'shrinking'? sensation. I think it's all to do with how we're trying to influence the direction of energy in the body.

I recall Dan 'bodywork' Harden mentioned about energy going up on the right side and down on the left in one of the previous aiki related threads and I think this ties in with what you're trying to get across. You see when energy goes up the body must go down or 'shrink' to maintain balance and conversely when energy goes down the physical structure must go up or rise. So by pushing on the balls and heel you facilitate the correct energetic flow within the body.
Pressing on the heel also causes the body to rise from the back side of the body as opposed to the front. We want this to occur because we need to stretch the spine to increase the gapping between the vertebrate. The only way you can do this is to pull the so called silk structure around the body from head to toe. The more silk you can pull (without breaking it - very bad and dangerous) the more gapping you can get between the vertebrate.
This will free up trapped nerves that are located in the spinal region which go to muscle structures further away from the body which can then be worked on and strengthened.

That's my take on it anyway but feel free to correct it if you need to do so and maybe check with Bodywork on that energy thing see if Im right or not because I might not be -shrug-
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:49 am

Dmitri's observation about the effect of the surface is on point, imo. Afa the debate about heel or toe, both methods are traditional; but for different purposes. In general, if one is moving forward, pivoting on the toe is easier. Otoh, turning to the back (i.e., spinning backward), the heel is easier. Now, of course, one could argue that this is simply a matter of preference. However, I would point to skaters (ice or wheel) in order to justify that opinion. This is something you learn doing "figures" on ice or the street. And, that's also why I think Dmitri's point is key. Pivoting on the toe (can) always contain a vertical element (i.e., less foot surface on the ground makes for a more efficient spin), consequently tippy-toeing on rough ground would make the pivot easier. Yeah, it can make one less stable, ... so, it's always better to have nice, smooth ground. Anyway, that's just been my experience. I also think that the spins/pivots in the Yang form are described with reference to using toe or heel.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:11 am

Oh, and imo it might be more precise to describe it as keeping the weight toward the front or the back of the foot; rather that use toe or heel.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby junglist on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:10 pm

The key is always to maintain neutral body (physical configuration that allows you control another person without clashing with his force) and I find that if you pivot with the heels you lose your configuration and so,you have to pivot with the balls of,your feet.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby willie on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:29 pm

junglist wrote:The key is always to maintain neutral body (physical configuration that allows you control another person without clashing with his force) and I find that if you pivot with the heels you lose your configuration and so,you have to pivot with the balls of,your feet.


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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby junglist on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:51 pm

?
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:52 pm

Amor... up one leg and down the other, eh?

Sounds like somebody might have the very wrong end of a stick that doesn't belong to them to me.

;)
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby amor on Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:34 pm

GrahamB wrote:Amor... up one leg and down the other, eh?

Sounds like somebody might have the very wrong end of a stick that doesn't belong to them to me.

;)


not sure what your getting at there, please do elaborate what you mean
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:42 am

Don't worry, everything will become clear with the passage of time.
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Re: Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:59 am

depends on the application!

take two examples:

from cross hands (inner form, just after "as if shutting a door") to "embrace tiger and return to mountain" one turns with the heel of the right foot making contact with the ground. The application of ETRM is like a sissors with your legs behind the opponent's and your arm slicing along his chest. good applications allow for a margin of error and differing circumstances and ETRM is no exception, many leverage points are considered including stepping onto the opponents ankle / inner shin.

From "extend the hands" (inner form after "vanguard arms" inner form after "beginning style") to seven stars (inner form) before "grasping birds tail" one chops with the right hand in seven stars guard posture and the right foot turns on its ball of foot / toes... application: potential kick.

of course all this contains internal principle, it is not the internal principle which is ever present that is expressed overtly in the form as much as the application. By that I mean the applications are placed side by side as they work well as counters and recovery options whilst being in accord with the nei-gung principles and training of the style. so in a way, yes, on that "atomic" level so to speak they are voicing internal principle but the real reason for the point of contact is in martial application.

For example many styles shun stepping forward with the heel on the ground and the toes pointing up, viewing such as a good way of being swept. In TCC as one proceeds through repeated Brush Knee Twist Steps this is exactly what is done, because it refers to what in shuai jiao is called a "shin bite". The preceeding spirals and twists deflect and turn the opponent so he is in no position to sweep us. Again... one must be familiar with the application.

The discussion wouldn't be complete without mention to "turn around and kick with the heel".. here the left foot crosses the right and begins twist on its ball of foot as right heel is used, this switches several times always opposite, so left heel-right toe, right toe - left heel, the purpose to arrive shoulder width apart as one executes the kick. In a way is is the physical exploration of this question. Practice and enlightenment will be forthcoming...
Last edited by Niall Keane on Mon Oct 03, 2016 6:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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