Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

[Niall Keane]

Don't worry, everything will become clear with the passage of time.

ain't that the truth!

[DeusTrismegistus]

There are times to heel pivot, and times to ball pivot. The old argument over the back leg in brush knee is hard to make headway on as there seems to be two different methods passed down. Maybe both work, or maybe one will work for you and not the other. Maybe it wont matter if you are standing on gravel barefoot?

If you think about all the pivoting stuff in martial arts styles it really benefits people fighting on flat artificial ground. If you practice in the woods, or a field with uneven grass, or un-mowed grass, you have to change the way you step and pivot.

[cdobe]

Might be overthinking it a bit. I'm with Nike. Just do it.

I think Bugang might have a point. For a training session (as in not fighting) like in static posture where the feet are concerned you would be try to 'join' your structure by utilising the various parts of the feet.
Bugang I agree with you that pushing on the heel does create a sense of rising and pushing on the balls do have a 'shrinking'? sensation. I think it's all to do with how we're trying to influence the direction of energy in the body.

I recall Dan 'bodywork' Harden mentioned about energy going up on the right side and down on the left in one of the previous aiki related threads and I think this ties in with what you're trying to get across. You see when energy goes up the body must go down or 'shrink' to maintain balance and conversely when energy goes down the physical structure must go up or rise. So by pushing on the balls and heel you facilitate the correct energetic flow within the body.
Pressing on the heel also causes the body to rise from the back side of the body as opposed to the front. We want this to occur because we need to stretch the spine to increase the gapping between the vertebrate. The only way you can do this is to pull the so called silk structure around the body from head to toe. The more silk you can pull (without breaking it - very bad and dangerous) the more gapping you can get between the vertebrate.
This will free up trapped nerves that are located in the spinal region which go to muscle structures further away from the body which can then be worked on and strengthened.

That's my take on it anyway but feel free to correct it if you need to do so and maybe check with Bodywork on that energy thing see if Im right or not because I might not be

You are absolutely wrong about what Dan teaches regarding the up and down spirals and regarding the foot turning. I think you should avoid to invoke his name and create the wrong impression that you have some insight into his teachings. This is the downside for him to share information or terms and having people with no clue adopt the language and filling it with their own concepts and mystical ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with what he teaches. Please just speak for yourself.

[amor]

You are absolutely wrong about what Dan teaches regarding the up and down spirals and regarding the foot turning. I think you should avoid to invoke his name and create the wrong impression that you have some insight into his teachings. This is the downside for him to share information or terms and having people with no clue adopt the language and filling it with their own concepts and mystical ideas that have absolutely nothing to do with what he teaches. Please just speak for yourself.

Okies, thanks for setting me and the rest of us straight since I don't want to be propagating incorrect information. The thing is I am currently encountering some of this up/down flows in my own training. And I thought this might be an opportunity to write about it since the feet, amongst others, do play a big part overall.
However you're obviously in a better position than I am so perhaps you could discuss what the up and down spirals in relation to the thread OP are all about, if it has any relevance at all to it.

[WongYing]

When starting out in learning, train the heel, then when advancing skill train the point just behind the ball of the foot, then train the centre of the ball of the foot. Progress through these stages and you will have all you ever need

[amor]

When starting out in learning, train the heel, then when advancing skill train the point just behind the ball of the foot, then train the centre of the ball of the foot. Progress through these stages and you will have all you ever need

Which ball are you talking about, the ball of the big toe or small toe or both?

[yeniseri]

At one time, I used to default to orthodoxy (whatever that means ) but if less than martial function, whatever feels comfortable within the movement sequence is what I recommed to students..
As in Wu shi taijiquan (Jianquan) yun shou (cloud hands) where ankle heel then ball of left, then right, is usually changed to Yang style foot stationary with waist axis rotation in the realm of something that can be easily done/mastered then as the student feels more comfortable, I might go to the next level of instruction per what they imagine they could handle.

I usually do the same in Chen style since too much rotation can be damaging to the knees!

[WongYing]

"Which ball are you talking about, the ball of the big toe or small toe or both"

The center of the ball of the foot, i.e center point of the foot pad behind toes hence ball of the foot and not ball of the toes.

all three points offer traction and propulsion, also axis of rotation up into the leg and kuq, allow for ground path connection, There is more but just focusing answer on rotation pivot points

[amor]

"Which ball are you talking about, the ball of the big toe or small toe or both"

The center of the ball of the foot, i.e center point of the foot pad behind toes hence ball of the foot and not ball of the toes.

all three points offer traction and propulsion, also axis of rotation up into the leg and kuq, allow for ground path connection, There is more but just focusing answer on rotation pivot points

So the center point of "the ball of the foot" can be considered as being the yongquan point, no? This is one of the main points in IMA so Im guessing this is the point your referring to?

[origami_itto]

"Which ball are you talking about, the ball of the big toe or small toe or both"

The center of the ball of the foot, i.e center point of the foot pad behind toes hence ball of the foot and not ball of the toes.

all three points offer traction and propulsion, also axis of rotation up into the leg and kuq, allow for ground path connection, There is more but just focusing answer on rotation pivot points

This is relevant to my interests.

I'm just coming back to my studies after an extended break. It's a strange feeling as I have a lot of the feeling still, but my body is not conditioned at all. I remember how it should feel, but the chronic tension and lack of conditioning really helps illuminate my deficiencies and correct me. It was getting to where I was experiencing tremendous pain in my ankles all the time (ortho says I need them rebuilt) and my knee injury was causing me to roll my stance to the outside of my foot. I've been a big mess, so I started my Zhan Zhang, and of course I couldn't stop there and had to pick up the taiji again and now I'm addicted again. About a month into the refresh and I feel amazing.

I found that focusing on keeping my feet pressing on three points (heel, ball of big toe, ball of two smallest toes) during Zhan Zhang helps me find and relax into my structure, and I can keep the feeling during form practice.

During form practice, I'm experimenting with either keeping the weight on those three points or using the "three nails" advocated by William C.C. Chen, heel, ball of big toe, big toe. I find that the big toe helps most in keeping me from leaning too far forward, but I feel like that setup introduces more tension into the lower part of my stance.

Getting back to the original question, I learned Yang Taijiquan with stealing steps and jailhouse steps and part of the weapons systems.

The long form I learned turns on the heel. I find that this is the easiest way to maintain proper knee alignment and relaxation during the movements. It stresses the joints less and makes it easier to align precisely. It presents obvious benefits to the beginner.

Stealing steps in the third section teach how to release your feet from the stance you've been training and starts training a slightly different way of thinking about the weight shifts, going fully weighted to a leg you normally go 60-70 on and moving forward. Jailhouse steps use the same basic concept backwards and forwards to adjust your footwork on the fly to fit your form into a smaller space.

The weapons forms then take those ideas and add a few more tools to the bag. It's not unusual to find an idea in the solo form that is more strongly expressed in the weapons forms, and I sometimes like to express those ideas in my solo form practice as well.

Point being, the "always on the heel" point is good and valid and easier for beginners to grasp. It's not incorrect to hammer this in as the only way to do it in the early stages. Most times for general form practice I turn on the heel and use normal steps. If I have to make adjustments to fit into the space, I'll find myself pivoting on ball or heel as the situation dictates to make the structure work.

We were always encouraged to explore the form and the mechanics, to learn the proper way to do it for training, but that it was only a framework or tool for training the skills, and not the end-goal. Once you've got the sequence and mechanics down, it's a laboratory.

[littlepanda]

I think Bugang might have a point. For a training session (as in not fighting) like in static posture where the feet are concerned you would be try to 'join' your structure by utilising the various parts of the feet.
Bugang I agree with you that pushing on the heel does create a sense of rising and pushing on the balls do have a 'shrinking'? sensation. I think it's all to do with how we're trying to influence the direction of energy in the body.

I recall Dan 'bodywork' Harden mentioned about energy going up on the right side and down on the left in one of the previous aiki related threads and I think this ties in with what you're trying to get across. You see when energy goes up the body must go down or 'shrink' to maintain balance and conversely when energy goes down the physical structure must go up or rise. So by pushing on the balls and heel you facilitate the correct energetic flow within the body.
Pressing on the heel also causes the body to rise from the back side of the body as opposed to the front. We want this to occur because we need to stretch the spine to increase the gapping between the vertebrate. The only way you can do this is to pull the so called silk structure around the body from head to toe. The more silk you can pull (without breaking it - very bad and dangerous) the more gapping you can get between the vertebrate.
This will free up trapped nerves that are located in the spinal region which go to muscle structures further away from the body which can then be worked on and strengthened.

That's my take on it anyway but feel free to correct it if you need to do so and maybe check with Bodywork on that energy thing see if Im right or not because I might not be

From what I've read, in the Macro-cosmic chi kung exercise, Intent is used to move energy up/down along the meridian lines. The body is kept still.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW0zLkF6vrg

In the above video, at 32:30 nick lowry talks of energy going up/down.


.

[Steve Rowe]

Something else to consider is that if you turn on the heel you go offline one way and the ball of the foot you go offline the other way if you pick the foot just off the ground and turn on the centre you stay online and because you picked your foot up it doesn't matter what the floor surface is. When you pick it up don't let it 'throw' you backwards and you can utilise it increase power with a 'flinch' step.

[origami_itto]

Something else to consider is that if you turn on the heel you go offline one way and the ball of the foot you go offline the other way if you pick the foot just off the ground and turn on the centre you stay online and because you picked your foot up it doesn't matter what the floor surface is. When you pick it up don't let it 'throw' you backwards and you can utilise it increase power with a 'flinch' step.

Another rationale for the heel turn method is a leg trap/knockdown application with the toe sneaking behind the ankle and the shin pressing against the shin on the weight shift.

[Steve Rowe]

By picking the foot up you are also training the ability to change distance as well as using stepping, flinching and skipping for power as in the long boxing and weaponry.

[origami_itto]

Sure, but do you have to train everything in every movement?

The progression of skills in the forms I know is very logical and methodical.

Basic stepping and pivoting is introduced in the first section, more advanced stepping, including picking up the foot in the manner you described and advancing mid-technique comes later. Further refinement comes with the system through weapons work and partner practice.

I look at it kind of like the first pass with a chisel on a block of stone to carve a statue. Rough, undefined edges that you're going to refine later.

Another example is with how we do roll-back. In the first grasp sparrow's tail sequence, it is very simple movement, almost directly changing from Ward Off Right to the hand position for roll-back. I was watching some Chen style videos and noticed how differently they do their roll-back, then found the motion is contained in our first roll-back in the small frame. I started practicing the first section roll-backs with that larger movement, partly because through research I realized I use it a lot in real life situations to set up a rear arm lock with great control to walk somebody off the premises safely. (though oddly, I always seem to wind up in the posture as if performed on the left side, which I never practice)

Then I noticed at the beginning of the second section we start the roll-back from the end of "carry tiger to return it to the mountain". From that hand position, I naturally have to perform the larger frame version of the movement already, so I don't need to practice it in the first section roll-backs, so I dropped that part of the movement and went back to the small frame there.

It's an additional bit of nuance that a beginner doesn't need to worry about mastering before they have got the basic movement down, so there is no real need for me to force it on students at that point in learning the form. The frame spectrum is there waiting for the student to discover it when they're ready.

Once they've got the idea and understand it, then they can play with changing up their form to explore it. So just apply that to stepping and toeing and everything else. It's all got good uses and we should be training them all.