Foot turn: Pivot on Heel or Ball of the Foot or...?

[Steve Rowe]

I see no reason to start with good teaching of principles. Mobility, balance and distance control is dependent on moving both feet and vitally important. I watch many people 'stuck' and over reaching in technique through lack of mobility and in techniques like the 4 corners stepping out into the most ridiculous positions trying to pivot on immobile feet. Moving both feet is in fact easir when done properly. The power sourcing aspect can then be taught later.

[origami_itto]

I guess it comes down to a preference in individual development.

Advancing through progressively more challenging movement seems easier to develop than starting with all the bells and whistles from the beginning, to me, personally, but YMMV. It may be worth it to front-load the challenge to make the rest of the form/concepts more trivial to pick up. The only real error, IMO, is picking one way to do it and thinking that's all there is to it.

In reality, most folks are just likely to keep doing things the way they were taught, and rationalize reasons to justify sticking with it.

[Steve Rowe]

Certainly, I changed it from my experience in teaching and fighting. Another point that could be relevant here and has many arguments is stepping toe to heel or heel to toe - I use the natural walk heel to toe but run (or move fast) toe to heel, but many runners now also run heel to toe.

[origami_itto]

Generally, I think I do heel-toe for moving forward and toe-heel for moving backward. I'm having trouble thinking of any time that is different other than the "implied kicks" that stop toe-down. But even those become steps and don't stay there. The only time the heel goes flat from that position is in a quick retreat.

Still refreshing forms though, so my answer may change. The geometry of it would seem to indicate that pushing back with the toe when moving fast keeps the structure unbalanced forward and may actually dictate the top speed achievable, while heel down allows a more balanced stance and adding the pulling power of the front leg to add to the pushing force of the back leg and provide more overall forward power. I know there was a trendy jogging method a few years back that focused on more IMA-esque type relaxed stepping.

So yeah, I get your point. ABX - Always be experimenting

[WongYing]

Now we are talking about traction and propulsion in stepping and foot work

[origami_itto]

And we haven't even covered pivoting or spinning on a weighted leg!

[dspyrido]

Heels for advancing - toes for retreating: Translation: heels for stability and power, toes for speed and agility. That's it for theory. Proof? Try sprinting on the heels or try lifting a heavy weight on the toes.

Application? Does the move need stability and power or agility & speed. The use of toes vs heels just flows from there.

But the real problem is not in the theory but in the conditioning. The foundation must be built much like any building. The toes need conditioning & coordination to engage them. The heels work more off the larger groups but they also need conditioning & coordination.

For the toes can you move nimbly? Skip rope? On the heels can the legs be engaged to lift through the arms or is it disconnected? Can the legs lift with power & stability while in motion?

In xinyi it is trained by clawing the ground with the toes. We humans dont have a claw on the heel so it is all in the toes and for this the heel is slightly raised.

For heel stepping the training is in low posture conditioning that is also is learnt to move with speed. It boosts stability & power.

The other day I was surprised to see an excellent cma sifu demonstrate with a low horse stance slightly on his toes where the heels where off the ground by less than 1cm. He moved with ease. I spotted it and asked him and he explained - it's to condition the legs. It's the first time I have seen ma bu done this way & he was right because it is not normally used in xinyi. The toes seem to have been forgotten or hidden for many cma guys.

But to sum up - toes or heels? Not as important as conditioning movement with both. Then the body can work out the right application naturally.

[taiwandeutscher]

And we haven't even covered pivoting or spinning on a weighted leg!

Yes, done often in my Xiong Yanghe style (Yang Jianhou lienage).

[origami_itto]

Heels for advancing - toes for retreating: translation: heels for stability and power, toes for speed and agility. That's it for theory. Proof? Try sprinting on the heels or try lifting a heavy weight on the toes.

Application? Does the move need stability and power or agility & speed. The use of toes vs heels just flows from there.

But the real problem is not in the theory but in the conditioning. The foundation must be built much like any building. The toes need conditioning & coordination to engage them. The heels work more off the larger groups but they to need conditioning & coordination.

For the toes can you move nimbly? Skip rope? On the heels can you legs be engaged to lift through the arms or is it disconnected?

In xinyi it is trained by clawing the ground with the toes. We humans dont have a claw on the heel so it is all in the toes and for this the heel is slightly raised.

For heel stepping the training is in low posture conditioning that is also done with speed. It boosts stability & power.

The other day I was surprised to see cma sifu demonstrate a horse stance on his toes. He moved with ease. I spotted it and asked him and he explained - it's to condition the legs. It's the first time I have seen ma bu done this way & he was right. The toes seem to have been forgotten or hidden for many cma guys.

But to sum up - toes or heels? Not as important as conditioning for both & letting the body will work it out.

Definitely.

In Yang style, If you're studying all the classical empty hand and weapons forms, you'll get all the different stepping methods, if you practice them you'll condition them.

I practice on uneven terrain more often than not lately, either in the apartment where I have to deal with limitations of the stuff the kid and wife leave laying around, or in the parking lot with a slight grade for drainage, or the back yard with a sort of three-tiered lawn with some flats and slopes.

Point being, I have to get creative with the stepping at times in order to stay in the flow.

And we haven't even covered pivoting or spinning on a weighted leg!

Yes, done often in my Xiong Yanghe style (Yang Jianhou lienage).

Three times in the Yang Long form, but you can make them steps instead of spins if you're wearing sticky shoes or are on sticky ground or are just not feeling up to a spin.

[wayne hansen]

A lot of Wu stylists turn on the weighted leg
I have seen some very good yang stylists do it like yui Kwong from Hong Kong
It takes some skill to do it without it being detrimental

[Steve James]

I'm not sure I understand what ya'll mean by "spinning on the weighted leg." Imo the discussion has led to the confusion of stepping with pivoting with turning and spinning. Sure one can step to turn, forward or backward. But, a "spin" is a spin. It can be done on the heel, the center, the ball of the foot, or even on the toes -- but on one foot at a time. Pivots can be done with both feet on the ground --usually using some combination of heel and toe. The traditional footwork in the Yang Single Whip turn is done with a pivot. The "Turn and kick with heel" is done with a spin ... on the _____, as opposed to the ____ in the "Turn, lotus kick" at the end of the form.

[Bao]

A lot of Wu stylists turn on the weighted leg
I have seen some very good yang stylists do it like yui Kwong from Hong Kong
It takes some skill to do it without it being detrimental

You can pivot on the heel while being weighted on the same leg. The method we practice (Yang and Sun styles) is to establish a "centerline"/turning point right through the shoulder down to the heel. So the whole body turns around this vertical line.

Some people feel it's a bit awkward, but it's just a matter of practice I guess. It can be quite useful in certain situations. I practice the method in push hands/applications and in the Sun form as well.

[origami_itto]

A lot of Wu stylists turn on the weighted leg
I have seen some very good yang stylists do it like yui Kwong from Hong Kong
It takes some skill to do it without it being detrimental

You can pivot on the heel while being weighted on the same leg. The method we practice (Yang and Sun styles) is to establish a "centerline"/turning point right through the shoulder down to the heel. So the whole body turns around this vertical line.

Some people feel it's a bit awkward, but it's just a matter of practice I guess. It can be quite useful in certain situations. I practice the method in push hands/applications and in the Sun form as well.

I know for a fact that this method is in one of the weapons forms I've forgotten. Possibly San Tsai Jian?

Pivot on the weighted toe or heel can make a good change of angle happen.

[richardg6]

Wu style is all about turning on the heel.
One example here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1722-GGW4Q

[wayne hansen]

I have had 3 Wu teachers
I learnt to turn on the weighted leg on both the heel and the toes