Burning palm vs phone book

[greytowhite]

Bao, it's not just chemicals, as I've seen it done without any sort of preparation or chemicals as you describe. After taiji practice one night my teacher came to hang out for a little while at my place as we were friends before I started practicing. My old roommate's beanpole of a coworker was there and started insulting my rather diminutive friend's martial skill, expressed his disbelief someone at 4'10" could be formidable. They quickly agreed to the terms of a demonstration. My teacher asked, "You know one inch punch? This is one inch palm" and without any of the setup you describe, no shirts were lifted, no chemical applied, nada. His hand was maybe an inch away from the guy and then he struck. The poor kid (20 maybe?) who was talking smack stumbled back a few paces and took a knee. Holding his chest, the dude said, "Augh... I can feel it in my back." He lifted his shirt and we could all see the hand print. My friend then told the guy he was lucky that he only got 30%. I've heard similar stories from people about getting kicked by their karate teacher and a footprint was on their back. The hell do I know?

OK I just did a little experiment -- sat on the floor, put a thick book on my calf, and hit it full-force with a 28-inch kali stick. Twice, in two different places. Second time I really let it have it. If the palm print thing was possible, I would expect to see distinct linear imprints on my skin, since I don't think anyone can make their fingers hit harder than I can hit with that stick. But there are no such imprints. (And I've always been relatively easily bruised, and I'm sure that condition doesn't improve with age.) I definitely felt the hits, and I actually do see a red line -- but it is almost perpendicular to the stick's orientation; it goes across the shinbone where it comes closer to the skin -- looks like the (force applied to the) book compressed that area of skin against the bone, causing some light bruising.

FWIW

Dmitri, you have a very interesting setup for an experiment. My hypothesis is that the larger surface area of the hand striking the book makes the pages transfer force more effectively more like a uniform solid because it is less concentrated and the layers are not reacting in such a small area. Proportionately, the surface area of a knife point, nail and stick are quite small in comparison to the area of the phone book. As the force tries to penetrate around the impact site the layers quickly become concentrated under it and dissipate the force to the rest of the book. Another consideration is that many styles have multiple waves of force in one strike. So perhaps the initial contact is enough to "prime" the pages into something more solid and then the secondary force wave is the palm? Now how to test this... sledge hammer and ballistics gel instead of your leg? Where are the Mythbusters when ya need their lab? Also we might need a fluid dynamics physicist...

[Dmitri]

...or a phone-book dynamics one.

It's possible that somehow it works how you're describing, -- I'm just not seeing it. Why would it dissipate a smaller object differently... But then again, I ain't no scientist.
Maybe I should hit it with two or three sticks half am inch apart, and see if that makes any difference?

We just hired a guy with masters in physics, I'll pick his brain tomorrow, see if anything shakes out.

P.S. not at all doubting "one-onch strikes" (properly performed) hurting like hell, BTW. Can do a bit of that myself...

[windwalker]

...or a phone-book dynamics one.

It's possible that somehow it works how you're describing, -- I'm just not seeing it. Why would it dissipate a smaller object differently... But then again, I ain't no scientist.
Maybe I should hit it with two or three sticks half am inch apart, and see if that makes any difference?

We just hired a guy with masters in physics, I'll pick his brain tomorrow, see if anything shakes out.

P.S. not at all doubting "one-onch strikes" (properly performed) hurting like hell, BTW. Can do a bit of that myself...

Do you expect to do it with no training,,,the point of the training was to enable one to be able to do it.
Or do you somehow think you have the training to do this with out the training...

remember its not just the hand print.

The point of using the phone book was only a medium by which the depth of the effect could be felt and
shown with out damage or much damage to the one it was demoed on...
Only one hand was trained.

A physics guy,,,maybe might be able to help you understand a way by which it might work or should not work...

[Franklin]

also with your hand (and training)
you can be more selective and have control on how force is transferred into object that is struck

thats why people (who train) can selectively break a brick in a stack using their hand


your hand is not a stick
if you use your hand as a stick - why not just use a stick to hit people...

[C.J.W.]

I have a family friend who was a presidential bodyguard in Taiwan, and he told me a true story about how one of his seniors, a Baji and Pigua instructor in the secret service, once broke the ribs of a cop wearing a bulletproof vest with a single palm strike.

What happened was the cop was shooting his mouth off in front of a group of bodyguards about how training empty-hand fighting is useless nowadays because fists are no match for bullets. So the senior guard asked the cop if he'd be willing to put his theory to the test by taking a hit while wearing a vest. The result? He was rushed to the hospital and the x-ray revealed 3 broken ribs.

[willie]

I have a family friend who was a presidential bodyguard in Taiwan, and he told me a true story about how one of his seniors, a Baji and Pigua instructor in the secret service, once broke the ribs of a cop wearing a bulletproof vest with a single palm strike.

What happened was the cop was shooting his mouth off in front of a group of bodyguards about how training empty-hand fighting is useless nowadays because fists are no match for bullets. So the senior guard asked the cop if he'd be willing to put his theory to the test by taking a hit while wearing a vest. The result? He was rushed to the hospital and the x-ray revealed 3 broken ribs.

now that I believe, because that is the kind of power...

[Dmitri]

Franklin, I know what you're saying, as I said I'm not arguing against power projection/percussive impact. I'm trying to figure out how it is possible to have a hand print transmitted through a medium like phone book the way it's described. Breaking a rib or a brick is one thing; being able to impress a specific pattern that is as small/detailed as a palm print is another, at least IMO. Qualitatively different.

It may very well be real, -- I'm just trying to understand how it works.

Yeah I know a stick is a different animal. The burning palm I saw kind of "left" the "relaxed" hand/palm on the surface after the strike, so maybe I need a heavier stick and "leave' it pressed onto the surface after... I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

Windwalker -- it should be possible to build a mechanical device that would be able to reproduce this effect. Or are you suggesting otherwise, that only a trained human hand is capable of this?

[windwalker]

Franklin, I know what you're saying, as I said I'm not arguing against power projection/percussive impact. I'm trying to figure out how it is possible to have a hand print transmitted through a medium like phone book the way it's described. Breaking a rib or a brick is one thing; being able to impress a specific pattern that is as small/detailed as a palm print is another, at least IMO. Qualitatively different.

It may very well be real, -- I'm just trying to understand how it works.

you have it from 2 sources how its tested and the effects.
one "me" the other a teacher running a business who outlines some of the same practices
It doesn't seem like you've really read anything about it, to understand "how, or what is being transmitted"
according to the theory used trained by those who practice it.

Instead your trying to fit it into something you feel you know about...

My bet would be that there are others here either who can do it or have had it done to them but wisely
dont mention it....This started out in "Chu Ka various inch force - push, shock penetrate " thread but was moved

Really don't understand why as it fits into "push, shock, penetrate" type of power.
I only mentioned it as something that I felt also fit into the thread....

[Kettlebells4U]

@ Windwalker: why don't you take a camera / phone and make a video of you performing this feat and post it here?
This would clear everything up!

[Franklin]

Franklin, I know what you're saying, as I said I'm not arguing against power projection/percussive impact. I'm trying to figure out how it is possible to have a hand print transmitted through a medium like phone book the way it's described. Breaking a rib or a brick is one thing; being able to impress a specific pattern that is as small/detailed as a palm print is another, at least IMO. Qualitatively different.

It may very well be real, -- I'm just trying to understand how it works.

Yeah I know a stick is a different animal. The burning palm I saw kind of "left" the "relaxed" hand/palm on the surface after the strike, so maybe I need a heavier stick and "leave' it pressed onto the surface after... I dunno. Just thinking out loud.

Windwalker -- it should be possible to build a mechanical device that would be able to reproduce this effect. Or are you suggesting otherwise, that only a trained human hand is capable of this?

my point is just that I don't think you will be able to reproduce something like this using an inanimate object (stick)

chinese martial arts has many specialized training to achieve different things
nowadays everything we see is a mcdojo and people saying they have skills that they don't have...
but there is still traditional stuff out there...

not saying to believe everything people say...

when people tell me crazy things, i just listen..
i don't believe it unless my past experience coincides with what they have said
even then I probably don't believe them
just file it as possible.. maybee...

and some stuff is hard to explaine by science
for instance- why when i slapped my training partner (20 years ago)...
why did a perfect hand print shaped bruise appear on his body 24 hours later..
why wasn't it a diffuse ... why was it in the shape of my palm (you could clearly see the 5 fingers and palm-- like if i put ink on my palm and pressed it to a paper..)
and why did it appear 24 hours later (the next day)... with no pain for him.. when i slapped him- he could not use the arm for 10-15 minutes... but no pain the next day when the bruise appeared

i don't know.. i wasn't trying to do it...
thats just one of the things that happened...


there is crazy specialized training in chinese kung fu
for example..
one of my teachers was talking to me about one of the styles he learned..
and i asked about that style's iron palm training...
basically it was thrusting the hands into a vat of rocks
until the first two layers of skin were gone
and then using some special herbs to regrow the skin in a special way...
so i asked my teacher if he went through that..
he said no-- because he had already learned an iron palm training before
and when he showed that teacher- he said it was ok
but then tweaked a couple things in the training for him..
(i also got he gist that the special training to take the skin off your hand and grow it back with special herbs was a bit of a dangerous thing to do...)

so-- take for example someone who had undergone something crazy like that
there must have been a purpose to develop training like that in the style...
i am sure someone from the outside looking in would have a hard time to understand
just because this type of thing is so outside of their experience and understanding...



i just don't see how hitting yourself with a stick is scientifically equivalent to
having someone with a specially trained skill strike you

in my experience- when i have come across something weird that i did not understand at all
i have had to go through the training myself to understand - or get an idea of what was happening...
i also found that when i had preconceived ideas about something and how it was happening-
usually it was very far from what was actually happening
and the preconceived ideas were not any help in actually attaining the skill
(they kind of take you down the wrong path)...


thats just where i am coming from on this...

and sometimes you just see some weird stuff that you can not explain
-- like one time i was observing an acupuncture treatment
the dr put in a needle..
then the needle started making large clockwise circles
after a certain number.. the direction reversed and counterclockwise for a certain number of rotations
(i did not count)
but i did look at the surrounding musculature and it did not move or tense at all
and the circles were large -- like the needle went in 90degrees to the skin
and when it was circling it was line at a 20-30degree angle to the skin
the dr and i watched this -- then looked at each other

then when we walked out of the room
the conversation was basically:
me- what the heck was that?
dr: i don't know- never seen that before...



Franklin

[Niall Keane]

@ Windwalker: why don't you take a camera / phone and make a video of you performing this feat and post it here?
This would clear everything up!

hahahaha... because he doesn't train it anymore silly! "one time at band camp..."

Windy is great craic! I bet he sits there, a student of logic, and uses RSF as a playground to test the bounds of gullibility?

[marvin8]

A few burning palm without the phone book videos:

Uploaded on Mar 2, 2009
Wu Family Wudang snake style Eight diagram palm
medical martial and spiritual qigong
This demonstrates the burning palm for healing. The black palm would cause damage. The strike is only to the skin, but can be selectively focused on the skin, flesh or bones, as well as be struck with the skin, flesh or bones. Calles by several names burning palm, vibrating palm , bamboo palm.
Videos available directly from Wu lao Xie at [email protected] paypal 108.00
1) Internal Palm Methods Workshop
2) Tibetan Burning Palm Workshop
3) Bamboo Internal Palm Workshop
dragongatesanctuary.net
dragongatesanctuary.com
Wu Lao Xie Christopher Lee Matsuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz8uoq4JX8

Published on Feb 6, 2013
[email protected]
dragongatesanctuary.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Hy0pINldI

Published on Feb 18, 2016
Testing my sons energy....& having fun experimenting!:)

Learn the Burning Palm today visit our site and get started today...

http://www.warriorbodybuddhamind.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uPxMFRWpeQ

[Dmitri]

my point is just that I don't think you will be able to reproduce something like this using an inanimate object (stick)

Are you suggesting the resulting palm print is not actually a bruise, i.e. not the result of a mechanical action/compression? That something more esoteric (whatever that might be) is taking place here that can't be explained by mechanics?

...some stuff is hard to explaine by science

for instance- why when i slapped my training partner (20 years ago)...
why did a perfect hand print shaped bruise appear on his body 24 hours later..
why wasn't it a diffuse ... why was it in the shape of my palm (you could clearly see the 5 fingers and palm-- like if i put ink on my palm and pressed it to a paper..)
and why did it appear 24 hours later (the next day)... with no pain for him.. when i slapped him- he could not use the arm for 10-15 minutes... but no pain the next day when the bruise appeared

IME different people bruise very differently. My bruising is usually as slow as you are describing -- even slower. After a strong hit, in the beginning there is nothing, then in several hours I see some pink, then in another few hours it goes more solid red, then over the next several days it shift from there to purple, blue, green and yellow, before it finally blends into the skin color (as it heals). I've seen this beautiful rainbowy process take 10-12 days. FWIW

i just don't see how hitting yourself with a stick is scientifically equivalent to
having someone with a specially trained skill strike you

You're right, it isn't. I don't know how to properly test it (short of the actual thing, which like I said in the beginning is unfortunately unavailable to me, logistically) because I don't understand how it's possible. I do believe that it, if it indeed took place as described, would be a mechanical action that should be reproducible with mechanical means. We can just disagree on that I guess.

It doesn't seem like you've really read anything about it, to understand "how, or what is being transmitted"
according to the theory used trained by those who practice it.

I've seen it done and I know someone who can do it and trains (or trained) burning palm stuff very seriously (Tibetan White Crane). They don't do the phonebook thing though, AFAIK.
But no I haven't read anything about "how, or what is being transmitted". Are you referring to "chi"? (Or are you going to suggest I "do my research and find out for myself" instead of just simply answering my questions?)

Very simple question: in your opinion/based on your knowledge, is the resulting palm print a regular bruise from a mechanical compression?
If the answer is no, then my next question would be: what is the cause of the print?

Instead your trying to fit it into something you feel you know about...

That's how humans reason and learn usually. Except not "fit into...", but "explain using..."

This started out in "Chu Ka various inch force - push, shock penetrate " thread but was moved

Really don't understand why as it fits into "push, shock, penetrate" type of power.
I only mentioned it as something that I felt also fit into the thread....

You can post it there again, not sure why you edited out your part in the OP -- you could have just copied it back to the other thread, if you think it belongs there... Doesn't look like you were "banned" from that thread or anything; just seems like the phone book related stuff gained way too much traction there.

[windwalker]

Windwalker -- it should be possible to build a mechanical device that would be able to reproduce this effect. Or are you suggesting otherwise, that only a trained human hand is capable of this?

Maybe, why do I need to suggest anything.
I already did, I suggested:

go through the training,
find someone who can do it,
or research it more to understand the theory by which it's said to work.

You mentioned testing it on your self and did not even try to duplicate the conditions.

If your really set on trying to understand it.
why not try this.

get a phone book, separate it into 4 pieces of different thickness
and try it using the thinnest section first.

Start with 10 pages or what ever you can do it with the first time.
then each week or so add 10 pages until you can do it.

this would be one way, what some might call the direct way.

its not the way its trained although some of the hand conditioning is similar in nature
starting with "mung" beans in a bucket, and then practicing to crush all the rice in a small rice filled pad
by slapping it....

Niel, has the correct I stopped this training along with many others many yrs back.
we used to train and have what was called "iron for arms" and "shins" not fun stuff,
nor IMO healthy for the body in long run...

In Korea one teacher I trained under "mantis" style related how they used to kill pigs and such testing things out on them.
He said he could pierce the skin of pig, something I had and have skepticism of.
Having felt some of the things he could do I would tend to believe it...

a little of his history

Park Chi Moon.
Shifu Park Chil Sung was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea. He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old). He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find.

At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang. During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as guerilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army. After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then. Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.

http://www.oocities.org/mantiscave/parkchil.htm

very intresting time for him,,, The Chinese of the day he said would not teach the Koreans their arts directly...

[windwalker]

You can post it there again, not sure why you edited out your part in the OP -- you could have just copied it back to the other thread, if you think it belongs there... Doesn't look like you were "banned" from that thread or anything; just seems like the phone book related stuff gained way too much traction there.

I edited it out because I thought it shouldn't have been moved in the first place.

I didn't move what I had posted...the mods for what ever reason did.
Why should I move something back, that I didn't move to begin with?

've seen it done and I know someone who can do it and trains (or trained) burning palm stuff very seriously (Tibetan White Crane). They don't do the phonebook thing though, AFAIK.
But no I haven't read anything about "how, or what is being transmitted". Are you referring to "chi"? (Or are you going to suggest I "do my research and find out for myself" instead of just simply answering my questions?)

Very simple question: in your opinion/based on your knowledge, is the resulting palm print a regular bruise from a mechanical compression?
If the answer is no, then my next question would be: what is the cause of the print?

and the next question after that would be? and the next?

I posted a link from another teaches site who also used a phone book to test it....he explains it pretty clearly
If you didnt take the time to read it, what would be the point of me saying anything about it?

In answer to your question, no its not from mechanical compression.
the idea of using the phone book is to provide a medium that "it" passes through instead of the body itself.
a way to test it, with out injuring the other person.

Franklin, mentioned about being able to control the depth of the effect.
He also mentioned about someone getting their ribs broken by being slapped through a bullet proof vest...
I would suggest that if you think this was also done by "compression" ya might want to rethink it....

The panel’s strike face is created to slow and disperse the energy of the bullet. The backside of the panel is created to reduce the trauma. If the panel is flipped, there’s no promise of the vest stopping the bullet.

Yes, I would say if you have such an interest the best way is to find out for yourself....I notice that on other subjects like "aiki"
you seem also to say "go to the seminar" and then you'll see.....
this is the same.....