Why is it legitimate to be thrown but not pushed in demos?

[Bao]

So, why do so many say that people being pushed in tai chi demos lack skill, but it's legitimate to be thrown in judo and Shuaijiao demos? Couldn't you say the same about these styles? Why can't a tai chi teacher be allowed to push a student when judo teacher's are allowed to do a hip throw on their students?

So external students are allowed to not counter and not resist, but tai chi students are supposed to not suck and show skill by not being pushed away. Can someone pls explain the logic why different styles should be judged and treated differently?

[Finny]

So, why do so many say that people being pushed in tai chi demos lack skill, but it's legitimate to be thrown in judo and Shuaijiao demos? Couldn't you say the same about these styles? Why can't a tai chi teacher be allowed to push a student when judo teacher's are allowed to

Because hopping up and down is not a real reaction to a lateral push. Those students thrown by judo or SC teachers show how a real person would look if thrown. Simple.

[GrahamB]

Ask John Rambo

https://youtu.be/6JO4eBw7gbo

[Dmitri]

Because what people expect from a demo is a martial technique, and a throw is infinitely more of a legitimate thing (martially) compared to a push. If you perform some of those judo throws on concrete, almost exactly how they're demoed, they're likely to end a fight. For a push to come even close to that, it would have to be a push into some sharp furniture corner, etc. And hard surfaces are way more common and available than perfectly-positioned table corners.

[windwalker]

odd reading the comments.
The push is only one of many demonstration methods that allows the ones there to feel something with out being damaged, and others to see something they can understand.

In most cases it's called long power and is only used as a training tool....a demo tool...

I find it strange that any one who practices taiji feels that whats called "push" is actually what is shown
and the way it would be used.

Because hopping up and down is not a real reaction to a lateral push. Those students thrown by judo or SC teachers show how a real person would look if thrown. Simple.

yes it is simple they'er reacting to something that they feel. No its not a lateral push, if it was they wouldn't react so.

what is a "real" person

[origami_itto]

Because what people expect from a demo is a martial technique, and a throw is infinitely more of a legitimate thing (martially) compared to a push. If you perform some of those judo throws on concrete, almost exactly how they're demoed, they're likely to end a fight. For a push to come even close to that, it would have to be a push into some sharp furniture corner, etc. And hard surfaces are way more common and available than perfectly-positioned table corners.

An uprooting push is the beginning of a technique. You can stay attached and have your way with them. Like say what happens when you uproot and then change it to single whip, or separate foot, or lotus leg? Or whatever.

At the point of the push, you've got them under your absolute control, so just use your imagination. You don't need to actually slam people on their face in order to prove it's working.

[Bao]

Those students thrown by judo or SC teachers show how a real person would look if thrown. Simple.

So... Standing like a stiff and let yourself be thrown without resisting, is the "normal" reaction you would expect in a fight or in a competition? ...Ok...

[Bao]

Because what people expect from a demo is a martial technique, and a throw is infinitely more of a legitimate thing (martially) compared to a push. If you perform some of those judo throws on concrete, almost exactly how they're demoed, they're likely to end a fight. For a push to come even close to that, it would have to be a push into some sharp furniture corner, etc. And hard surfaces are way more common and available than perfectly-positioned table corners.

Yes, a "push" is a method in practice. Instead of throwing or use a take down, we practice on how to capture the center and the balance of the partner. If you want to learn how to throw or use a take down, the principle behind it is uproot and unbalance. The main differences between TJQ and Judo or SC is, IMHO, more a question about a principle vs technique based learning system. Pushing/uprooting is not a technique, it's about practicing a principle that lies behind and is important for "technique".

So, back to your reply. It is still not an answer to my question. If a throw is much more of a natural finisher....Then why isn't it even more important to learn to counter a throw than a "push"? Don't all those throwing demos just show bad, learned reactions of the students that let them so easily be thrown?

[Ba-men]

Because what people expect from a demo is a martial technique, and a throw is infinitely more of a legitimate thing (martially) compared to a push. If you perform some of those judo throws on concrete, almost exactly how they're demoed, they're likely to end a fight. For a push to come even close to that, it would have to be a push into some sharp furniture corner, etc. And hard surfaces are way more common and available than perfectly-positioned table corners.

Negative

When the fists start flying. 99% of all Judo/Shuai Jiao throws get boiled down to reaps, trips and sweeps at best! And I mean at Best! Mousy down to your nearest watering hole start some shit with a dude your size and try your best hip throw while you two are engaged in your tussle... the usual will be an epic fail, then you will go for your back up .... ala the trip/reap. As a 3rd dan in Judo.. nothing to be ashamed with/about… that’s why we practice trips, reaps and sweeps… they are much more practical.

The more basic the better when stress and reality are in play….
A push is a shove... attaching (grabbing etc) and pulling someone off their center then shoving them.. is about as basic as it gets. Using a push/shove down someone (so they can’t get up without suffering your further attacks) or Using a shove/push to gain the initiative/space etc for strikes, kicks etc... is about as simple and practical as it gets! Watch any two to kids on any playground and see it happen daily. You see it in the NFL every Sunday... You see it in Sumo Wrestling... You see bouncer do that every Saturady night etc...

Learning to hone this super practical skill set is a huge part of TJQ. Learning to pull a guy off his center and then shove/ i.e. rocket the guy off the nearest wall only to be bounce back into your fist…
That’s part of the push… (the practical side)

[wiesiek]

Those students thrown by judo or SC teachers show how a real person would look if thrown. Simple.

So... Standing like a stiff and let yourself be thrown without resisting, is the "normal" reaction you would expect in a fight or in a competition? ...Ok...

in good judo demo you /uke/definitely don`t standing still and stiff like stick.
demo is the demo and you need some cooperation to show concept/technique clearly,
speakin` so,
I don`t understand why TJ guys refuse to show full throwing tech., not only beginning ie - push /aka kuzushi - as somebody is sayin`?,
when demoing on the tatami...
My opinion is, that after the push you`re losing the contact, then- any "big throw" is impossible to do.
Simply - you`re throwin` or puschin`, - can`t do both at once /unless "push"- IS -the final accent of he throw of course/.
anyway,
my back didn`t touch the mat due to sparring with TJ guys yet,
but with the wrestler did...
However didn`t spar a long time, maybe TJ level raised little beat around here, have check it out.
ps
not sure about this Ba men 99% ,
When fist is flying- you simply avoid to been hit and go for the contact - lower than attacker center.
If yo`re able to do it - he is yours or should be ...

[GrahamB]

This just happened in Polaris at the weekend:

https://www.facebook.com/attacktheback/ ... ref=SEARCH

I think this video is relevant to the thread because it shows exactly how a throw can lead to a quick finish, whereas a push just leads to them coming back.

To be able to do what that guy did against a live, resisting opponent you need to drill your seonage throw over and over against a person in 'drilling' mode.

[Gus Mueller]

So, why do so many say that people being pushed in tai chi demos lack skill, but it's legitimate to be thrown in judo and Shuaijiao demos? Couldn't you say the same about these styles? Why can't a tai chi teacher be allowed to push a student when judo teacher's are allowed to do a hip throw on their students?

So external students are allowed to not counter and not resist, but tai chi students are supposed to not suck and show skill by not being pushed away. Can someone pls explain the logic why different styles should be judged and treated differently?

I'm not sure I understand. Far too many (in my opinion) taiji demos involve throws that would fail against a wrestler of any kind except playground and the whole point of a demo in any system is that the student loses.

So, why do so many say that people being pushed in tai chi demos lack skill...

I don't know who's saying that. IF, as some suggest, you are talking about the hopping demos, I still largely leave the students out of it and cut to the chase: the teacher is faking. Yes, the students are (over) cooperating and aiding in the fakery, but that's not the important thing. The important thing is the teacher.

[wiesiek]

..."To be able to do what that guy did against a live, resisting opponent you need to drill your seonage throw over and over against a person in 'drilling' mode..."
and Graham hit the nail, I suppose
- a training system/regime:
TJ guys don`t do one FULL throw x times with the partner a day, they do x times form instead.
Final is , that when shit hits the fan they have no clue what to do.
They don`t have "body memory" ingrained as good as needed.

[windwalker]

..."To be able to do what that guy did against a live, resisting opponent you need to drill your seonage throw over and over against a person in 'drilling' mode..."
and Graham hit the nail, I suppose
- a training system/regime:
TJ guys don`t do one FULL throw x times with the partner a day, they do x times form instead.
Final is , that when shit hits the fan they have no clue what to do.
They don`t have "body memory" ingrained as good as needed.

Of those posting how many are the
mythical taiji guys that everyone talks about.
but no one seems to be?

[Dmitri]

It is still not an answer to my question. If a throw is much more of a natural finisher....Then why isn't it even more important to learn to counter a throw than a "push"? Don't all those throwing demos just show bad, learned reactions of the students that let them so easily be thrown?

Again, demos are there to showcase the art. Any MA that's worth anything, at its core, should have some ways to prevent the opponent from continuing to fight. That's what people expect to see during demos IMO; nobody is looking at the "dummy" during the demo, unless you're a specialist looking for particular details. Demos are for wider audience by definition, with the general goal to attract mostly-unskilled people to the MA being demoed. So an audience will be looking for your demo to show them how your MA will stop an attacker. And a push doesn't stop anyone, unless like I said it is performed in very specific (i.e. less likely to encounter) circumstances/setting.

Your question was "in demos", so I'm answering that. It's not about "taiji vs judo", etc. -- at least that's not how I saw it.