Why is it legitimate to be thrown but not pushed in demos?

[origami_itto]

Clearly its an early MMA, and it stands to reason that as its four pillars are die pu, shaai jiao, chin na and dim mak, that it will have plenty of shared techniques and principles with shuai jiao the style itself.

I wouldn't call it an MMA, I'd call it a CMA, the C meaning "Complete".

What we learn in my line is that taijiquan contains:
Tui-Kick
Da-Strike
Shuai-Throw
Na-Lock

Die Pu and Dim Mak were never really discussed specifically, I see them more as subsets of Da, I suppose.

And, of course, I almost forgot that my training includes weapons work. I love weapons.

you're starting to make sense man!

Look out! Next thing you know the cubs will be winning the world series!

as for "an" , yea I see Douglas Wile translated "an" in writings attributed to T'an Meng-hsein in the song of 8 ways as "push". i'm not mad about Yang Cheng-fu's approach though. Other Yang stylists, from Banhou line I know seem in accord with the Wu style and my own in "an" being a downward crushing force, the crush generated through an element of peng rotating with the downward press in the application.

This is what I've been trying to say. Downward is one option. Upwards is for uprooting and not hurting people. Downward is to really ruin someone's day. If you're generating enough force to launch 180 lbs ten feet back in the air, it doesn't take much imagination to figure out what that would to if directed into a compromised structure. The pistol fingers to the temple example I gave earlier is the downwards crushing.

I practice the "push" posture in my form, for example, with a downward an on the shift back and an upward an on the shift forward. The sinking in "needle at sea bottom" is another place it's very evident. I train it outside of the form with resistance bands anchored overhead, or anytime in daily life that I have to apply force downwards. Flushing a toilet, for example.

And yes, "Yang Family Secret Transmissions" is my primary source for the vocabulary about the intricacies. I consider and categorize information from other sources according to that base.

these terms can be useful when coaching for sure, but I guarantee you if you asked the lemmings in the push chi demo above you'd have as many different esoteric explanations.

Most students don't do their homework.

I think there is some resistance to Qi as a concept based on poor communication concerning what it is.

On the one hand, there's the bioelectric energy, on the other, there is the "intention wave". One is not the other and lots of foolishness and misunderstanding occurs when people start to conflate the two.

Think about the saying "It's all in the wrist" and tell me what "it" is.

"It" is Qi. If you've ever played the drums, you know that the way you think about holding the stick can change everything about how the stick behaves and the way it sounds. In a martial arts context, with that understanding of Qi, there is a world of difference between throwing a hand through space with the Qi in the arm and fingers vs moving a body full of Qi that expresses Jin at the point of contact. There's a difference between swinging a sword and moving a sword with your Qi projected into it.

Windy came up with a few such half-whispered magic spells just there, cunningly (he thinks) disguised as questions about moving just one lemming in the line. (its not like these charlatans ever saw the "pick a brick in the stack for me to break" trick and thought of incorporating the act into their own jive, no its because MAGIC)

Windwalker and I talk out of band frequently, and I have a lot of respect for what he brings to the discussion. I don't fully understand everything he tries to tell me and I haven't experienced much of what he says he has experienced, but I don't discount what he's saying or deny that he has experienced those things. He believes firmly in Newton's laws and doesn't believe in magic Qi powers. That can sometimes get lost in translation.

I have never met anyone who claimed to do some of the things he's seen, so I have not had an opportunity to test it for myself, so I therefore reserve judgment concerning it until I can experience it for myself. I am skeptical but open to experience.

Regarding "picking a lemming" sure, being able to "thread the pearl" and affect a particular person in that line of pushers would be an interesting demonstration. Simply rooting and knocking them back, not so much. But that particular trick is, as we both know, a common facet of taijiquan demonstrations that is effective in generating interest among those not in the know.

That kind of scattered, unnecessary complexity just wrecks my head, but sure I've been accused of being "simple" in approach by a poster before. I think he meant it as an insult? Don't know why, simplicity of expression is what I would consider "elegance", and its what I strive to achieve, some day maybe?

Simplicity is good! The simpler a movement is, the more varied and powerful the uses for it. The simpler an approach is, the more effectively you can train. I spend the largest amount of my training time in silk reeling -two circles that are at the heart of every other movement in my system.

Speaking for myself, the only thing I can accuse you of is being a bit closed minded and tunnel-visioned. You've acquired a decent sized set of the tools of taijiquan that meets the needs of your particular focus, and you are working to hone and refine those tools. I just believe that there is even more to the art than what you're training and due to my particular focus, I spend more time working on those other areas.

Honoring and respecting each other's approach and practice in no way diminishes our own practice.

I'll confess that there is a little bit of sour grapes behind my opposition to competition. My knee is permanently compromised due to unsportsmanlike conduct from a frustrated and ego-driven BJJ blue belt who couldn't take me down when I had less than two months training in that art and working within the confines of a pure grappling framework. I'll never be competitive again due to that injury, but as I said, it doesn't matter. It isn't a necessary part of developing or proving my gongfu.

But I put 2-4 hours a day, every day, for seven years into becoming a more efficient fighter before I stopped training, so to have someone come along and dismiss the integrity of the authentic transmission I received and my damn hard and sincere effort and study as some kind of substandard "boxercise" is highly offensive. Particularly when I'm coming back after the break and rediscovering the marvels within.

[Gus Mueller]

Wow, this is quite a page.

"The need to be dismissive and antagonistic towards the practice of others is simply insecurity." It's good when someone can admit that. Shows self-reflection and inner growth.

And who doesn't like another episode of Modern Nightclub and Event Security Theater? Today it's Dealer's Choice Meets Red & White and Suppresses a 1500 Person Riot. I fully expect an episode about beating up Shaquille O'Neill and Prince in one bloody broken-glassed evening.

And of course the latest fake demo. And the usual "No, you don't understand, it's really real, guys!" The hardest part of that demo is finding that many shills to show up at the same time in matching pajamas.

On a more technical note, "an" is what Chinese people do to buttons. Of course they also hit typewriters so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[origami_itto]

I would suggest trying it first. I know people who can bounce out any one in the line...I also know people who thought that it was bs as you mentioned and found out there is a little more to it then what it looks like. It was funny watching them fail after trying it. Anyway not here to defend it, its a demo that some like to use impling certain skill sets. My point is that its not as easy as it looks..and there are levels to how and what is done.

My own teacher used it in a demo from a 20 years or so ago. I've never liked it. It's impressive, but not necessarily meaningful in and of itself.

One thing he does differently here than I see most people do is that the folks in the middle actually pop up off of the ground from the pressure while they're pushing.

Its a demo like any other demo showing different things. What makes either one better depends on what one is looking for
and degree of understanding....

Agreed, the perspective of the folks here is geared towards demonstrating the martial application of taijiquan in a convincing manner. So under that criteria, it's better.

In the first demo, the question might be asked what is it supposed to be showing and does it show it ?

Rooting, fa jin, threading the pearl, the problem is that someone who doesn't know won't see it, and someone who does know will see how it's sorta not valid.

[everything]

I wonder who here has really been on the receiving end of a good press and push, let alone split (just about any 2 pt throw). I think any judo class can let you experience split. I went to a very well known ima teacher. His press made me (non compliant non hopping) "fly" to the padded wall. Imagine if an NFL linebacker lightly did press so there isn't the impact force just the pulse. But your body travels pretty far. Didn't feel mysterious, just a much better pro athlete level press demo than when your normal rec athlete ph friend uses press. Except the teacher weighed 140 not 290. I went to another famous teacher who applied the mysterious level push (feels like your sleeve level of pressure). This pulse and wave effect was incomprehensible because you cannot feel the force " landing" but feel the movement. Nothing made me "hop". Like an effortless throw feels but does not at all seem or feel momentum or timing or lever based. Very odd. Not "finishing" moves but awesome for whatever they are in a demo or non demo context. If you haven't felt these effects I don't know what to say because it would feel whatever legitimate means to you. It feels like being thrown but you feel you have less control or opportunity to perform a counter. I'm not interested in theory in this case. Just empirical evidence. "Regular" throws and takedowns are still by far the most interesting to me, though, in any context, perhaps because getting to the other level seems impossible at a middle aged rec level.

[Niall Keane]

I wonder who here has really been on the receiving end of a good press and push, let alone split (just about any 2 pt throw). I think any judo class can let you experience split. I went to a very well known ima teacher. His press made me (non compliant non hopping) "fly" to the padded wall. Imagine if an NFL linebacker lightly did press so there isn't the impact force just the pulse. But your body travels pretty far. Didn't feel mysterious, just a much better pro athlete level press demo than when your normal rec athlete ph friend uses press. Except the teacher weighed 140 not 290. I went to another famous teacher who applied the mysterious level push (feels like your sleeve level of pressure). This pulse and wave effect was incomprehensible because you cannot feel the force " landing" but feel the movement. Nothing made me "hop". Like an effortless throw feels but does not at all seem or feel momentum or timing or lever based. Very odd. Not "finishing" moves but awesome for whatever they are in a demo or non demo context. If you haven't felt these effects I don't know what to say because it would feel whatever legitimate means to you. It feels like being thrown but you feel you have less control or opportunity to perform a counter. I'm not interested in theory in this case. Just empirical evidence. "Regular" throws and takedowns are still by far the most interesting to me, though, in any context, perhaps because getting to the other level seems impossible at a middle aged rec level.

Was this "experience" during fully resistant sparring? Or had the teacher set up the conditions ?

[everything]

1. Demo in which I asked about what press should be like. Followed by light resistant randori and ne waza with different but similar feeling: Fairly standard white belt is easily controlled by advanced black belt feeling. 2. Demo and light resistant ph with same experience in either format.

First is similar to the feeling of your randori partner gets kuzushi and you cannot counter, or you simply cannot get position before submission: standard stuff, but imagine if you get kuzushi at the exact same moment you shove but with no strike impact part. Seems totally understandable. However the second case is inexplicable by me. As if you can see the set up and should be able to prevent anything you know how to, but you aren't actually ever off balance as in a judo set up. You both seem well balanced in fact. That is very strange to me. i can completely understand disbelief, thinking it can't work in ph, and if it can it cannot work against Fedor, etc., this writer must be insane, a hippie, etc etc. After this, I gravitated to judo, and it's possible to find the first feeling though press is never used since it wouldn't make sense. No idea on the ph thing.

[origami_itto]

1. Demo in which I asked about what press should be like. Followed by light resistant randori and ne waza with different but similar feeling: Fairly standard white belt is easily controlled by advanced black belt feeling. 2. Demo and light resistant ph with same experience in either format.

First is similar to the feeling of your randori partner gets kuzushi and you cannot counter, or you simply cannot get position before submission: standard stuff, but imagine if you get kuzushi at the exact same moment you shove but with no strike impact part. Seems totally understandable. However the second case is inexplicable by me. As if you can see the set up and should be able to prevent anything you know how to, but you aren't actually ever off balance as in a judo set up. You both seem well balanced in fact. That is very strange to me. i can completely understand disbelief, thinking it can't work in ph, and if it can it cannot work against Fedor, etc., this writer must be insane, a hippie, etc etc. After this, I gravitated to judo, and it's possible to find the first feeling though press is never used since it wouldn't make sense. No idea on the ph thing.

As far as compliant, we trained it and sparrow's hop simultaneously. So I'd stand with my arms across my chest and give my partner something to push against (think "step forward and push" from the tail end of the Yang long form) I'd practice going back with it and landing controlled about 5-10 feet away. When I ran out of space, we'd trade and I'd push. This is the only scenario where I've been comfortable going to 3/4 power on the push against a living person. Going "full power" against a refrigerator I can get it airborne for a few inches or so, but refrigerators I can knock around without pissing off the wife are few and far between these days.

We'd also train a press type shape as an application idea in the form to follow rollback. The rollback/pull down arm bar gets defeated and then you press into the center of mass and launch them. That one I've experienced in a more dynamic manner with certain training partners, and yeah, my feet were suddenly several feet in the air and I didn't feel it.

In non-compliant, low-intensity situations like push hands, when I can get it in, I only go about 1/4 power to avoid injury, that's enough to get people about a foot or so airborne and send them back maybe 2-3 feet with a clean angle. If I don't get the loft angle right, they might stumble back up to 15-20 feet or so. If they've got their root right, I'll go back stumbling instead.

In non-compliant, actual fight type situations, I'll give it a little pulse to knock them back (straight push) to make space or knock them down (downward push), or pull off the big one (uprooting push) between 1/2 to 3/4 power with a smooth join while staying attached so I can help keep them from falling badly and getting hurt and also making them think I just picked them up and set them down like a baby. That usually takes the fight out of them.

For the setup, if I can just enter cleanly and get both hands on the shirt, I'll slap their chest and roll my fingers from the pinky side into their shirt/jacket, pull back and down, push up and out. It's smooth, there's no jarring impact, no playing with balance. Attach and flow and they're flying before they have time to react consciously. If they're throwing hands and keeping me out, I'd usually use this "cross up" technique where I parry their punch and follow it back to guide it across their body and down so that both of their arms wind up crossed around the groin/waist level and then issue into their chest directly with more of a "cold force" feel and a tangible impact. Admittedly, the latter is trained more in the xingyiquan I study than the taijiquan, but it's arguably "cloud hands".

Counter-intuitively, these have always been easier to pull off in a fight than they have in training. There's a different sort of "in the zone" or "void" mindset that takes over and just flows into what will work at that moment instead of chasing/insisting on pulling off a specific technique.

[Steve James]

There's a video in BTDT of a young woman hip-throwing a man over her shoulder and onto his head. If I had to compare her movement to anything similar in TCC, it'd be Needle at Sea Bottom or even Punch down with Fist. I wonder, though. What "energy/jin/etc" would one say was being used? One can argue that all tcc movements contain some element of An. But, for me, any movement whose intent is forward and downward is specifically using An. Both hands do not have to be moving horizontally forward. (Some might argue that a straight 'push' is improper tcc. But, it's not like everyone's going to agree).

Anyway, my point about the video concerns how the practitioner uses the movement. It doesn't matter so much what it's called. I was interested in the comparisons that people could make similar to those that were given for the Repulse monkey (or "reeling forearms") movement.

[everything]

oragami, it sounds like you really have the hang of press.

On a tangent, ph in non-martial sports is pretty fascinating. I saw someone use press in a pickup basketball game. Not sure where he learned that. If he got it from taijiquan or what. He just very lightly pushed. In football/soccer there is a constant subtle ph battle happening. You don't want to throw your opponent (and he might fake fall like a taijiquan hippie for the ref to see the foul) too blatantly, but you want an advantage. Single arm ward off kind of thing is very useful. Same with a basic swimming arm motion. If you watch a lot of elite games you'll see diagonal flying type of splitting. Of course you see a lot of deliberate and inadvertent elbows. Plenty of kao using shoulder and thighs. One day when I was playing someone tried to use pull down on my wrist. I dropped further down. We exchanged a half-knowing look after that but never talked about this incidental grappling contest. If you watch corner kicks and other set plays there is quite a lot of grappling. Lots of push. The other day I saw a nice headlock hip throw. There is a lot of roll back energy used in spin moves. I've totally thrown someone down with borrowing energy just by spinning (you still have to control the ball, though) and he basically threw himself.

I think if you want to see a large amount of good and not-good fully resistant amateur push hands by elite athletes in totally non-martial art/sport, just watch a lot of top level football/soccer. UEFA Champions League and English Premier League will have a lot of ph. I doubt these guys have ever heard of taijiquan "energy" as being useful or of ward off, press, push, pull down, elbow, kao, split, rollback, but they use all 8 energies all the time. They also use 5 movements.

I think that's fascinating proof that these "energies" can be seen in use ALL the time and it's not actually unique to taijiquan. That taijiquan catalogued them into these 8 is pretty interesting in the reverse, isn't it? People say they don't make sense but if they watch the world's favorite sport, it should be obvious it makes total sense. The energies are so natural that non taijiquan athletes intuitively use them constantly. From that standpoint, learning tjq should be fairly obvious and practical in a very fast way.

[origami_itto]

There's a video in BTDT of a young woman hip-throwing a man over her shoulder and onto his head. If I had to compare her movement to anything similar in TCC, it'd be Needle at Sea Bottom or even Punch down with Fist. I wonder, though.

I think of an over the shoulder throw more like "carry the tiger to return it to the mountain" but the finish has that bending element of "send the needle to the sea bottom".

Though some of the ways I've seen people do each of those, they definitely have far different ideas about the main application idea.

I haven't looked at the video yet, of course. But will try to find it.

What "energy/jin/etc" would one say was being used?

Peng, kao, Cai, Lie, lu

One can argue that all tcc movements contain some element of An.

I rather think that they all contain peng, the way the peng is manipulated or manipulates is what differentiates the rest.

But, for me, any movement whose intent is forward and downward is specifically using An.

I think of An as expansive, outward from the center. Down and forward against something coming in, sure. In this case it's down and forward over the shoulder around our center so I'd go with Cai or Lie depending on the context. But the whole movement has a flow.

Peng is the bones of the movement, nothing without peng.
Kao to enter while applying Cai to the limb, Lie top from bottom for the throw, little more Cai maybe if it wasn't clean enough then Lu to keep from going down with them.

Both hands do not have to be moving horizontally forward. (Some might argue that a straight 'push' is improper tcc. But, it's not like everyone's going to agree).

Pushing with two hands simultaneously is double weighted. One should lead the other to prevent sacrificing your balance.
I did this one today and someone did it to me later, felt like a clean push but I rocked back on my heels a little.

Anyway, my point about the video concerns how the practitioner uses the movement. It doesn't matter so much what it's called. I was interested in the comparisons that people could make similar to those that were given for the Repulse monkey (or "reeling forearms") movement.

[origami_itto]

oragami, it sounds like you really have the hang of press.

Thanks.
I think about it as Push/an mostly.

Press is...

To me, at least, in my humble and ignorant opinion.

With the opponent outside it's that springiness that they rebound off of. If they aren't coming in I have to push, if they are coming in I use press to bounce them back.

If they have started to get inside and have managed to find something to grab onto and attack, if I can get it between my peng arms and squeeze it between them, the power dissolves. I can't quite wrap my head around why our how it works, other than that it makes my opponent part of the system he's trying to push and you can't put a fan in a boat to push the sails.

So basically, ji is the counter to an.

On a tangent, ph in non-martial sports is pretty fascinating. I saw someone use press in a pickup basketball game. Not sure where he learned that. If he got it from taijiquan or what. He just very lightly pushed. In football/soccer there is a constant subtle ph battle happening. You don't want to throw your opponent (and he might fake fall like a taijiquan hippie for the ref to see the foul) too blatantly, but you want an advantage. Single arm ward off kind of thing is very useful. Same with a basic swimming arm motion. If you watch a lot of elite games you'll see diagonal flying type of splitting. Of course you see a lot of deliberate and inadvertent elbows. Plenty of kao using shoulder and thighs. One day when I was playing someone tried to use pull down on my wrist. I dropped further down. We exchanged a half-knowing look after that but never talked about this incidental grappling contest. If you watch corner kicks and other set plays there is quite a lot of grappling. Lots of push. The other day I saw a nice headlock hip throw. There is a lot of roll back energy used in spin moves. I've totally thrown someone down with borrowing energy just by spinning (you still have to control the ball, though) and he basically threw himself.

I think if you want to see a large amount of good and not-good fully resistant amateur push hands by elite athletes in totally non-martial art/sport, just watch a lot of top level football/soccer. UEFA Champions League and English Premier League will have a lot of ph. I doubt these guys have ever heard of taijiquan "energy" as being useful or of ward off, press, push, pull down, elbow, kao, split, rollback, but they use all 8 energies all the time. They also use 5 movements.

I think that's fascinating proof that these "energies" can be seen in use ALL the time and it's not actually unique to taijiquan. That taijiquan catalogued them into these 8 is pretty interesting in the reverse, isn't it? People say they don't make sense but if they watch the world's favorite sport, it should be obvious it makes total sense. The energies are so natural that non taijiquan athletes intuitively use them constantly. From that standpoint, learning tjq should be fairly obvious and practical in a very fast way.

I flush the toilet, open the door, stand up, walk, etc for everything with taiji principles in mind.