Nei Jin vs Wai Jin

[origami_itto]

That's where it becomes about level as I mentioned above. Neijin beats Weijin, every time. When taiji players are sparring there are a couple ways to go with it.
If they're both using Weijin then whoever has the best Weijin wins. If one has good Neijin and the other good Weijin, the Neijin wins. If both have good Neijin, then whoever has it more wins.
Adam's philosophy, from what I gather, is that Taijiquan is only Neijin, so you have to consider it from that perspective.

I wouldn't completely agree with this view, but I won't comment further so to not unnecessarily derail the thread further out of respect for the topic.
... But if you want to discuss, pls open a new thread.

So, first, some base definitions.

The Neijia are commonly thought of as the big three Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang, plus Li Ho Pa Fa.

Why they're called Neijia is a thread of it's own.

User Yeun Ming posted an excellent article about the difference and lack thereof between each other and the Shaolin style arts in another thread, so no need to rehash that.

Jin as used here is as nonspecific a term as "energy" or "force", though either english term may be a better description for any given Jin than the other. Leng Jin is best described as "cold force" but Hua Jin, in my opinion, is a better described as "transforming energy".

Within all martial arts exist Wai Jin and Nei Jin, external force and internal force, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the focus of the exponents and lineage.

Yang Taijiquan recognizes at least 36 different Jin, some of which can be considered External (Wai) and some of which can be considered Internal (Nei).

This includes, but is not limited to, the following examples.

Wai
duan jin breaking force
chuang jin ramming/rushing force
cun jin one inch force
leng jin cold force
dou jin shaking force
chong jin charging force
fa jin releasing jin

Nei
chang jin long force
chen jin sinking force
zhan jin adhering force
nian jin sticking force
lian jin linking force
sui jin following force
hua jin melt/dissolve/neutralize/transforming energy
yin jin luring energy
na jin control/seizing force
xu jin store jin

Other arts and styles make use of some of these same Jin, but use a different vocabulary to discuss and consider them. Most of these Jin exist in all martial arts, but are expressed to a greater or lesser degree depending on the exponent and lineage. Most arts don't bother to explicitly name and study them individually, but rather just evolve the exponent's skills according to their specific practice.

So being discussed here is the following:

1)

If they're both using Weijin then whoever has the best Weijin wins. If one has good Neijin and the other good Weijin, the Neijin wins. If both have good Neijin, then whoever has it more wins.

This was in support of the point that taijiquan is intended to beat other arts, and that when two taijiquan players fight, whoever has the highest level wins because Nei Jin attacks Wei Jin directly, and can't attack Nei Jin. So whenever the exponent fails to use Nei Jin, they will fall to either the person who is using Nei Jin, or the person with Wei Jin superior to that which their lack of Nei Jin exposes.

2)

Adam's philosophy, from what I gather, is that Taijiquan is only Neijin, so you have to consider it from that perspective.

Based on what I've seen of his teaching so far, this seems to be an accurate description of his approach.


So, in my opinion, Taijiquan is all of the above. It is the greater and lesser yin and yang, hardness that contains softness, softness that contains hardness. Wei Jin and Nei Jin working together to produce a superior fighter.

I'm also of the opinion that Nei Jin is superior to Wei Jin. Wei Jin is easier to grasp and attain at a useful level, it is more intuitive and makes sense to most people. Nei Jin requires some serious conditioning, training, and emotional changes in order to become effective. Not everyone can surrender themselves fully enough to make it work. Most people can't attain the state of dissociation from the body and association with the environment, including the body, to approach anything but the most basic Nei Jin skills.

Of the two, I consider Nei Jin to be superior and feel that it completely dominates Wai Jin by nature. I also feel that Nei Jin does not work against Nei Jin, it can only affect Wai Jin. The "level" of a taijiquan exponent is directly equivalent to how well they can apply their Nei Jin, and the strength of the Wai Jin they have to fall back on when it fails.

In closing, complete Taijiquan has a measure of cultivation in both Nei Jin and Wai Jin, and neither is sufficient for all contexts and purposes.

A single wooden board cannot support a whole
structure; a single hand cannot make a clapping sound .
This is not only true of civil essence and martial practice,
but of all things in the world . The civil is the inner
principle and the martial is the outer technique . Outer
technique without inner principle is simply the brute
courage of physical strength. However, when one is no
longer in the prime, bullying an opponent will not work .
Those who possess inner principle without outer
technique, who think only of the arts of quietism and
know nothing of the practice of combat, are lost as soon
as they commit the slightest error. Whether for practical
pursuits or simply the way of being a human being, how
dare we neglect the two words-civil and martial?

[Bao]

Yang Cheng Fu wrote: . ...Outer
technique without inner principle is simply the brute
courage of physical strength. ...
Those who possess inner principle without outer
technique, who think only of the arts of quietism and
know nothing of the practice of combat, are lost as soon
as they commit the slightest error.

How can you then distinguish Wai from Nei? No I don't agree with the arrangements of "jins". They are not either nei or wai. All are mixtures of both, to various degrees.

In tai chi, you can not separate nei aspects from wai aspects. In Tai Chi, an attacking method is wai on the outside, but express nei on the inside. A defensive movement is nei on the outside, but carries wai on the inside.

In most "external" schools, the attacking weapon is yang, wai. But in most of tai chi, there's the opposite idea, the attacking arm is yin/nei, and the other arm is yang/wai. You don't attack with waijin, you attack with neijin. The wai aspects in breaking, ramming, whipping methods are only a containers that can express nei. So nei is expressed as yang from the yin state of wai.

[taiwandeutscher]

It should read Wai Jin, Wei Jin would mean "feeding (someone) Jin", and old training method, with the teacher diligently feeding the roots of the student with Jin, seldomly seen today!

[origami_itto]

It should read Wai Jin, Wei Jin would mean "feeding (someone) Jin", and old training method, with the teacher diligently feeding the roots of the student with Jin, seldomly seen today!

Yes, you are correct! I am sadly mistaken here. Need to brush up (read: learn) my Mandarin.

[origami_itto]

Yang Cheng Fu wrote: . ...Outer
technique without inner principle is simply the brute
courage of physical strength. ...
Those who possess inner principle without outer
technique, who think only of the arts of quietism and
know nothing of the practice of combat, are lost as soon
as they commit the slightest error.

How can you then distinguish Wai from Nei? No I don't agree with the arrangements of "jins". They are not either nei or wai. All are mixtures of both, to various degrees.

In tai chi, you can not separate nei aspects from wai aspects. In Tai Chi, an attacking method is wai on the outside, but express nei on the inside. A defensive movement is nei on the outside, but carries wai on the inside.

In most "external" schools, the attacking weapon is yang, wai. But in most of tai chi, there's the opposite idea, the attacking arm is yin/nei, and the other arm is yang/wai. You don't attack with waijin, you attack with neijin. The wai aspects in breaking, ramming, whipping methods are only a containers that can express nei. So nei is expressed as yang from the yin state of wai.

I agree, definitely. Taijiquan has hardness within softness, and softness within hardness. Wai Jin doesn't necessarily have a Nei Jin component though.

The main distinguishing factor, in my opinion, is that you can see Wai Jin, but you have to feel Nei Jin. So, paraphrasing what Roy Goldberg Sensei was saying in the aiki seminar, an external technique (Wai Jin) is different when it's fueled by an internal principle (Nei Jin).

An "external" art would focus on those visible aspects first which would deliver easily understandable and testable results relatively quickly. Over time the internal aspect would naturally accrue. An "internal" approach would emphasize the internal aspects first so that the external would have the internal aspect as soon as it's developed enough to be demonstrated.

So, I agree, you can't do Taijiquan without both. It is possible to do something that looks like Taijiquan that has only one, or neither.

Wai means outside or external. To be outside is to be visible. So wai jin means the type of jin where, when used,
an observer can, just by seeing it, understand every aspect of that force: how that force is stored and released,
its speed, angle, direction, etc. We are using wai jin for example when we do a quick and hard punch.

By definition wai jin is yang. Yang in Taiji is not the pure yang, it has a little bit of yin in it. This is called gang
zhong rou – hard containing the soft. The advantages of wai jin are that it is quick, hard, sudden, and powerful.
When released, the feeling is like that of an explosion or eruption, unstoppable, capable of destroying everything
in its path. It can be used to seriously injure or kill the opponent.

The disadvantages of wai jin are: generally the movements are large, and given its external nature, making it
relatively easy to detect and defend against. The duration of its power tends to be short. And once released, you
cannot easily change its trajectory or any other attributes of that force easily. Finally, the storage and release of
power here are completely separate processes.

The key points of using wai jin are speed, power, and accuracy. Practicing wai jin is about fulfilling our potential.
Some internal martial arts masters can release incredible power. It is about absolute quantity; we want to build up
as much of it as possible during practice.

Common types of wai jin used in Taiji Quan are: duan jin – breaking force, chuang jin –ramming force, cun jin –
one inch force, leng jin – cold force, dou jin – shaking force, and chong jin – charging force, etc.
Jin in Taiji Quan

[Subitai]

Not this again... I cannot agree that

Neijin beats Weijin, every time... (snip).... If one has good Neijin and the other good Weijin, the Neijin wins.

The allure of thinking that internal is better than external is almost overwhelming yet not necessary. True you can focus on just one or the other but in application is where they always come together.

Simply because the answer is simple...it's never about ONE purely against the other in purity. They are always in flux and interchangeable, never just one only or the other.

I think Bao's quote from Yang Cheng fu is spot on.

Often you hear guys trying to "out Internal " the other, or basically "one up" the other guy. I call this "Tai Chi Almightyism".

1)"our school is like water" we flow...

2) Pish posh, "our school is soft like a cloud"...

3) As soon as I hear this it makes me want go full on "kyokushin" on them. *(From an attack point of view i.e. I've never personally trained Kyokushin but I have students who have.) That would totally defeat 99.9% of so called Internal only players every time.

Another problem is, not all schools look at internal the same way. A common view is energy comes from the Dan tien(and an ENTIRE WORLD of other things that come with it) but there are different views as to how it travels to the extremities of the body.

In our school for example,
Bone marrow is indicative of the most extreme center, ligaments and tendons ride along it and muscle surrounds it.
- Relaxation and extension such that your movements concentrate on stretching the ligaments (therefore utilizing energy closer to the marrow ) is internal practice. In fact, to have your mind in the marrow is a clue... just one example.

- The more you squeeze or tense muscles such that the focus is further away from the marrow...it's generally more external.

Our so called external movements also have an internal element and vice versa...which is my point.

[Strange]

all is the wrong jin
except when it is correctly applied at precisely the correct timing

[origami_itto]

I think Bao's quote from Yang Cheng fu is spot on.

Well, my quote, lol. He just pulled part of it. *Huff*

Often you hear guys trying to "out Internal " the other, or basically "one up" the other guy. I call this "Tai Chi Almightyism".

1)"our school is like water" we flow...

2) Pish posh, "our school is soft like a cloud"...

3) As soon as I hear this it makes me want go full on "kyokushin" on them. *(From an attack point of view i.e. I've never personally trained Kyokushin but I have students who have.) That would totally defeat 99.9% of so called Internal only players every time.

That's not really where I'm going with this, it's not about schools or styles or even individuals, it's more about the power behind any given movement.
It's more about stimulating discussion than anything, but that's neither here nor there.

Another problem is, not all schools look at internal the same way. A common view is energy comes from the Dan tien(and an ENTIRE WORLD of other things that come with it) but there are different views as to how it travels to the extremities of the body.

In our school for example,
Bone marrow is indicative of the most extreme center, ligaments and tendons ride along it and muscle surrounds it.
- Relaxation and extension such that your movements concentrate on stretching the ligaments (therefore utilizing energy closer to the marrow ) is internal practice. In fact, to have your mind in the marrow is a clue... just one example.

- The more you squeeze or tense muscles such that the focus is further away from the marrow...it's generally more external.

Our so called external movements also have an internal element and vice versa...which is my point.

Definitely.

Here's what I think I was trying to say originally. The original discussion arose out of a quote I took from Adam Mizner. "Tai Chi wasn't meant to beat Tai Chi, it's designed to beat everything else. When you use Tai Chi against Tai Chi it just becomes a matter of level."

So what he's really talking about on a broad scale is Li and Jin. Jin crushes Li.

If you have two folks using pure External, kyokoshin, etc, the style is designed to fight itself and other arts like it, hard blocks beat hard strikes, and whoever can give and/or take more punishment wins.

Taijiquan is specifically designed to counter heavy force by yielding and neutralizing and redirecting if there's no incoming force, there's nothing to neutralize and redirect or reflect. If there's no Li there's nothing to manipulate with your Jin. Two perfect Taijiquan exponents would just stand in front of each other till they got hungry.

So there are feints and lures built in to Taijiquan in order to cause the opponent to produce some Li to work with. Direct attacks are contrary to the fundamental nature of the art, in my opinion, as they expose you to a counter. I always try to attack in response, as that has the highest chance of success with the least risk.

A taijiquan exponent of a superior level should be able to provoke the Li in their taijiquan stylist opponent without producing any of their own for the opponent to work with.

So Wai Jin is probably not the best term, as that does imply a well cultivated, soft force, not an easily manipulated brute force.

But it's also not accurate to say all "external" techniques or styles are Li, some are very well trained, but aren't necessarily "soft" in the way we're striving for.

So, ultimately, even good Wai Jin, if used first, can be neutralized and used against the exponent, no matter what style they are using, which is why taijiquan waits until the opponent has committed themselves to some sort of Wai Jin and then uses Nei Jin to listen, sense, interpret, neutralize, cover, etc.