Taijiquan in MMA and Sanda

[Dmitri]

Thanks. So the acronym was misspelled - that's fine, honest mistake I suppose. But what about the "world mixed martial arts competition" part? Looks more like a marketing "exaggeration" (to put it mildly) than an accidentally poor choice of words.

[origami_itto]

Yeah, looks like they've updated the original post with the right name.

I think they call it the world mixed martial arts competition because they welcome people from all over the world of any stylistic background. I don't know much else about the format, but the important part here is Taijiquan exponents winning their events against folks from other disciplines.

[windwalker]

Yeah, looks like they've updated the original post with the right name.

I think they call it the world mixed martial arts competition because they welcome people from all over the world of any stylistic background. I don't know much else about the format, but the important part here is Taijiquan exponents winning their events against folks from other disciplines.

Kinda funny isn't. So many here calmer for examples of taiji in action, once an example of one is provided
they then nitpick anything they can find to discredit it. Format, Training, ect...

I think they call it the world mixed martial arts competition because they welcome people from all over the world of any stylistic background.

ya think

What I look at is training methods whether I agree with them or not and whether they'er expressed in a free from format which it seems like this was.
A good reflection on the teacher, and students representing their style. In this case judging by the clips and still pics
it would seem that what was trained was used.

The format just as mma and sanda is just another format. I would be interested to know the intention of the format ie whether its just about "winning"
or more about how one won. I didn't really get this from what they've provided on their web site.





looks they do have different formats

[Subitai]

Nitpick?

Why not just come out and say it was me that gets your panties in a bunch? A video is put out and we're all just supposed to "love it". Do you agree that there should be standards? Why don't we just post a bunch of Jake Mace videos on taiji while we're at it.

I didn't Nitpick the video about training methods or format. I specifically said, the guy is a "Fall Guy". You're telling me at 45secs that he didn't just magically jump off both his feet and fall to the floor??? (at least the big guy didn't do the jumping cr@p) But, I smell cool aid and it's a crime not to point it out when it's found.

You claim to look for training methods...That video didn't show training methods, it made no attempt at trying to explain what it he was doing...other than to DEMO how he can beat up a fall guy. Ok fine, then it's open for judgement. It's not just this video...there are tons of videos out there where the instructor is being made to look God like and the student's are just falling over to make them look good.

I don't care if it's a famous old Chinese master, if I see a "fall guy" I call it out when it's being done. I know there are others here who feel the same.

Kung fu in general gets bashed around enough and especially Taiji. Dang right, I believe that if Taiji is really supposed to be graduate level work then it's should be held to a high standard.

[windwalker]

Why not just come out and say it was me that gets your panties in a bunch? A video is put out and we're all just supposed to "love it". Do you agree that there should be standards? Why don't we just post a bunch of Jake Mace videos on taiji while we're at it.

well for one I'm just pointing out the obvious, nothing really to do with you personally just the post in gen.
Could be anyone.

Jake Mace or anyone else should be judged by their own merits whether it affects your or anyone else's training I fail to see how it does.
It doesn't affect mine.

I guess the guy falling off the ring was also a fall guy?

Kung fu in general gets bashed around enough and especially Taiji. Dang right, I believe that if Taiji is really supposed to be graduate level work then it's should be held to a high standard.

"graduate level" we seem to have some very different view points about taiji. Taiji stands on its own just as all styles of CMA do.
Standards used to judge it are generally based on ones own experience and level of skill.

The event itself seems to have a lot of people who are known in the area who support it and has been in the formulation stage for a long time.
Having been in Malaysia and known some people from that part of the world they tend to take their MA very seriously. If you have a problem with the format
or questions about it I'm sure they would be more then willing to address them....

I was thinking of contacting them to post some things here but felt it would be a waste of time for them here.
It might be more productive to understand the fighters back grounds, length of training, and type of movement used. ect.
Of course this would mean that some might have actually try to find out something instead of just "nitpicking" meaning to focus on
some small issues....

I thought the guy looked skilled, what was shown in the clip looked very much like what was used in the still pic.
The clip was interesting in the way he controlled his space, and used the outer portion of his movements.

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKxxCMcm47Y

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TUElBATolE

Very detailed in his approach.

[origami_itto]

I'm hesitant to say anything about Adam's stuff because I'm paying for his online course, lol.

It's very good material. I'm still in the basic conditioning part of the curriculum but it's fantastic stuff. Ramzi is his frequent demo partner. I don't believe Adam would personally coach someone to represent his Taijiquan unless they had a high standard of expressing his method and teaching.


Lots of standing, song Gong. It's Taijiquan, nobody is faking in that video. Nobody was faking at the competition.

They do Taijiquan, very well.

[Subitai]

I do see some great things in those last 2 vids... Huzzah! I can also understand if you're currently studying with him some bias.

I think Adam definitely has skill. It's just for me, I don't like when I see students hopping or jumping.(~ at 1:23 or so of the 2nd video) It's totally unnecessary and they should just as easily take a step back or off to the side.

Best yet would be to have relaxed shoulders and sunk elbows then they would just yield. Relax and absorb can be in so many ways... If you imagine a figure 8 on it's side: "Infinity" symbol. That's the potential in the joints

He speaks of Sung yet he students are stiff enough to made to jump or stutter step. None of my students would ever respond like that. That's Demo all the way. If he could do that to me: I.e. make me jump or stutter, I'd quit the martial world forever.

I also disagree with his description of "yield to emptiness"... I refute his comment on that. At 1:54 when he shows his students arms overextended (to his right) . But HE JUST STOPS. Then he says: "then he just hit's me in the head anyway". Yeah, if you stop and do it wrong like that.

1) nobody does that either...by that I mean stop. At the end of "yield" you always apply a redirection or a change and keep the flow moving. That is a fundamental truth.

- at 2:00min, He's wrong when he says "emptiness does not mean next to you and that nobody would fall for that." NO, NO, NO, I could make a video to prove that multiple ways. If you know what you're doing you can have your opponents arm next to you (touching you) and it becomes a fulcrum for a body lock.


2) I could also find a reason to actually stop in the exact same instance that he's shown in the video and make it work...albeit however it would not be Taiji specifically. But non the less it would prove that it does work.

* Example would be wrestling: It does happen very fast though. Guy pushes, you have hand control and yield to his shove (to emptiness), you then change to duct under by lowering your level and take him down. I've used that in sport and in real fights numerous times.

But yeah, some good things also in those vids.

[Gus Mueller]

Do you recognize how extraordinarily offensive, bothersome, and not-safe-space it is to point out that people are obviously "jumping or hopping"? And putting in timestamps, that just racist, man!

[dspyrido]

Never heard of FIOGA & can't seem to see anything on it when it comes to details around the comp. Is it a small local comp or a big comp?
Also what are the "stick and hit" rules? The raised platform looks a bit small but that might be relevant to the rules and focus they are trying to bring in.

[100kilos]

The basic fighting video has a lot of things they need to work on. I am not talking about the use of their taiji since stated in another thread that's not my expertise, but if you want to get good at stoping a double leg, get someone who can actually perform a decent one so you can practice right. Same with the defense for the what I presume is the Thai clinch to knee.

[liokault]

I assume there is a reason he hasn't posted any video.

Until we see some, this thread is pointless.

[Subitai]

Do you recognize how extraordinarily offensive, bothersome, and not-safe-space it is to point out that people are obviously "jumping or hopping"? And putting in timestamps, that just racist, man!

I'm not sure if you were being facetious so I just want to apologize if board members have a problem with that. Trying to discuss no racism intended.

I would like to say something positive about Adam so as not to assume that I see only bad. Now that I've seen a little more. He displays good skill in just about all the check marks one would expect from someone that would have learned from that many teachers...I think his site says 7 of them?? Good to know and better yet, he's getting his students to mix it up. Again, that's is the way IMO to move the art forward. I don't know about his chi gong, but I'm confident in thinking that it should be very good level.

As I said before I was mostly concerned with the hopping / stutter stepping (and earlier Falling). Those are mainly directed at his students. Thus it affects the demo in question.

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Now about this:

Post by liokault on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:03 am
I assume there is a reason he hasn't posted any video.
Until we see some, this thread is pointless.

Is that directed at me because I said I could do it? Ok, Jeeze, that post was last night (Sunday nite) and I do have a job (today Monday) and just got home. I wonder when I'd have time to make a video to prove something that's pretty common knowledge. That being that there a few lineages that work heavily on the concept of "Yield to emptiness". My school is one of them. So that is why I feel like I have to speak up.

I will do it if that's what people need to see. But I would hopefully think that the level of Taiji understanding by most posters here can figure out what I said by the description I gave in my last prior post: 1) and 2) as a valid answer.

Again when you make someone empty, you don't just STOP and wait to be hit. In my school we say make his energy long (or extended) and after that... you immediately apply a change, be it strike, lock or whatever.

[origami_itto]

Do you recognize how extraordinarily offensive, bothersome, and not-safe-space it is to point out that people are obviously "jumping or hopping"? And putting in timestamps, that just racist, man!

I'm not sure if you were being facetious so I just want to apologize if board members have a problem with that. Trying to discuss no racism intended.

Gus is trying to take the piss, mainly directed at me from what I can tell. He's followed me to facebook thinking he's some kind of clever detective and is making reference to issues of social justice that I frequently speak about there in public posts (He didn't respond to the friend request I sent after he started messaging me, pity).



Which I'm sure he'll deny but you'll notice he mentions or makes allusion to me or something I've said in everything he posts.
(I've blocked him, but I do peek sometimes out of morbid curiosity)

He loves me so much he's allowed me to take up permanent residence in his head, rent free. But he won't come visit or even tell me where he lives so I can go learn from him.

As always Gus, you're welcome to come to Austin any time and show me what you've got hiding behind that keyboard.

I would like to say something positive about Adam so as not to assume that I see only bad. Now that I've seen a little more. He displays good skill in just about all the check marks one would expect from someone that would have learned from that many teachers...I think his site says 7 of them?? Good to know and better yet, he's getting his students to mix it up. Again, that's is the way IMO to move the art forward. I don't know about his chi gong, but I'm confident in thinking that it should be very good level.

As I said before I was mostly concerned with the hopping / stutter stepping (and earlier Falling). Those are mainly directed at his students. Thus it affects the demo in question.

Everyone I know who has met him says that as soon as his hands are on you, he owns you. I'm studying his material while getting in person instruction from my Sifu and my skills are growing by leaps and bounds. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can produce similar effects in other people who aren't very good relative to my current level. So, like you're saying, it's more a demonstration of the the difference in level between them than anything else.

He trains with A LOT of Zhang Zhaung.

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Now about this:

Post by liokault on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:03 am
I assume there is a reason he hasn't posted any video.
Until we see some, this thread is pointless.

Is that directed at me because I said I could do it? Ok, Jeeze, that post was last night (Sunday nite) and I do have a job (today Monday) and just got home. I wonder when I'd have time to make a video to prove something that's pretty common knowledge. That being that there a few lineages that work heavily on the concept of "Yield to emptiness". My school is one of them. So that is why I feel like I have to speak up.

I think he is talking about Adam. Apparently winning a competition doesn't count unless you have a video for people to trash and declare "That's not taiji!" for one reason or another.

I will do it if that's what people need to see. But I would hopefully think that the level of Taiji understanding by most posters here can figure out what I said by the description I gave in my last prior post: 1) and 2) as a valid answer.

More videos are always welcome.

There is a wide variance of understanding among posters here concerning how Taijiquan works.

Again when you make someone empty, you don't just STOP and wait to be hit. In my school we say make his energy long (or extended) and after that... you immediately apply a change, be it strike, lock or whatever.

Sure, I think he was just being rhetorical there. One of his other videos admonishes against playing the balance game. I could put 1000 words into this idea, but basically he has some very specific ideas about how to fight with Taijiquan and the more I look at them the more valid I find them.

In his method, instead of leading them into emptiness to the side, you simply empty in place and issue against their center. Emptying to the side is one way to do things, sure, and a good setup to issue against their flank, but, say you're getting punched in the stomach. Instead of needing to do that divert to the side, you yield and neutralize the belly then issue against their outstretched fist through their body with your belly. Language fails, but I think that gets the point across. It's not that leading to the side doesn't work, or that playing with their balance doesn't work, it's that Taijiquan has better methods to deal with those situations.

re: Not a balance trick