狼筅 - Interested ancient Chinese weapon and battle strategy

[johnwang]

The Chinese history had proved that if Chinese soldiers used this strategy, the death ratio between Chinese soldiers and enemy soldiers could be only 22 to 1,000.

What's your opinion about this Chinese ancient weapon and battle strategy?

[taiwandeutscher]

Didn't they also work in connection with 2-handed sabres under Qi Jiguang against Jap. pirates?

[johnwang]

I believe the Miao Diao is different from the 鸳鸯阵 (Yuan Yang) strategy with 11 soldiers,

- 2 shields with single edge knifes,
- 2 spike bamboo brushes with spear head.
- 4 spears.
- 2 long forks.
- 1 team leader/reserve.

[Ba-men]

Not sure that weapon is practical... My thirty years of medieval heavy weapons combat (SCA, American Combat league, Battle of nations i.e. rattan and rebated steel...full contact etc ) tells me to raise an eyebrow at such a weapon.

Second.... those formations in those pics also probably are not legit either. They draw more questions than answers. such as what is a sword and shield unit supported by a polearm unit (i.e. a close combat unit) be out front of a block of spears. Skirmishing? Maybe … The doctrine of that day was units of spearmen. that close combat unit would have had a hard time against a block of spears (i.e. wouldn't have been effective... any military commander of that time would have known that...)

Second pic where the lone spear man stands between two shield men.. again faced against a unit of spears. his lone spear against three or four opposing spears (about three or four spears standing across a battle line is all you can squeeze in that space. So 1 vs 3 or 1 vs 4 are not good odds! If faced against a close in unit (i.e sword and shield/polearm unit) once the spearman gets tied up (occupied against a foe, deflected etc the spearman is dead. he doesn't have a close in defense.
Warfare with spears is done in compact tight rows and this was done on all continents. Asia too! Your flanks are protected by the guy standing to the right and left of you. if they don't protect you or you don't protect them you all died.

That weapon you showed would have been clumsy at best on a line (especially in a spear formation!)

Here is another bit of information. (knowing your into Shuai Jiao and all...... ) what do you think happened if you lost your footing, fell or where thrown to the ground with all those spears, polearms and swords thrashing about? What do you think happened to you or the man standing to the left or right of you.... if YOU broke formation for any reason. (to run away. to advance to grapple. to advance and attack like a lone wolf etc?

[johnwang]

The "鸳鸯阵 (Yuan Yang Zhen)" was used by Chinese troops to against Japanese pirates in the Ming dynasty. I believe it was designed to deal with Japanese Samurai sword and not spear.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.a ... 776894.htm

[Graculus]

To reply to Ba-men's points:

These units were used by Qi Jiguang against the wako (pirates…Japanese with sizable contingent or maybe even the majority (in some cases) being Chinese), and he wrote about them. The black and white pictures come from one of his books (and the Korean version of same), so they are likely quite accurate.

To provide some context, he was put in charge of a poorly trained, demotivated army which kept on getting beaten by the wako. He wrote explicitly about the fact that the skill and longer reach of the Japanese swordsmen outclassed his own troops, and the Yuan Yang Zhen (mandarin duck formation) was his answer…and very effective it seemed to be. The pirates seemed to have fought in fairly loose formation, and he doesn't mention spears, despite this being, as you say, the major weapon of the time. Interestingly, he does write about the press of battle elsewhere, but it seems not to have been an issue here. The formations were, apparently, included in his book, and included an order of march and an open order deployment (perhaps more?).

While it may go against prevailing theory (or experience), he fought (2?) successful campaigns against the pirates. Although this was his major tactical unit, he instituted a number of reforms, got his men into regular training, instilled discipline into them and also instituted several other improvements to military operations in the area. One of his methods of discipline was summary execution for desertion of your unit.

Combined arms seem to have been his thing; he was involved in naval defenses which involved a multi-layer strategy, and when he was posted to the NW frontier, later in his career, he got into all kinds of combinations, including firearms and battle wagons. That was also where he had the two-handed swords based on the Japanese blades issued to his troops…ancestors of the miao dao.

To answer John's initial question, an interesting and intelligent approach based on teaching simple, workable tactics to troops who were outclassed in the normal run of things.

Graculus

[origami_itto]

As a formation, it looks pretty standard, a shieldman surrounded by polearms.



As far as the funky spears, I guess they're meant to catch the swords and bind them up and help keep them out in the effective range of the other spears. I could see them being hard to track in battle and easy to use just to foul up an advance.

This guy has an eight part series of blog articles breaking it down.

[Steve James]

I think that the weapon's usefulness will depend on the use to which it's put. We could ask whether the weapon and the formation are meant for attack or defense. General Qi had a specific problem to address. Iinm, he became well known because of his success against pirates. I've heard that the miao dao was developed to counter the Japanese long swords. But, the diagram suggests that it was more of a distracting/delaying tool rather than an offensive weapon. The video shows that the weapon was relatively light and flexible. I could see that lots of them could cause problems to attackers, but they'd have to be well backed up. I'm also interested to see what and how much training that the average person of that time would need to use the weapon the way it was expected.

[everything]

Doesn't it seem like it developed from kids fighting with sticks and branches?

[origami_itto]

I think that the weapon's usefulness will depend on the use to which it's put. We could ask whether the weapon and the formation are meant for attack or defense. General Qi had a specific problem to address. Iinm, he became well known because of his success against pirates. I've heard that the miao dao was developed to counter the Japanese long swords. But, the diagram suggests that it was more of a distracting/delaying tool rather than an offensive weapon. The video shows that the weapon was relatively light and flexible. I could see that lots of them could cause problems to attackers, but they'd have to be well backed up. I'm also interested to see what and how much training that the average person of that time would need to use the weapon the way it was expected.

If this source is to be believed, the Liang Xian is about 100 years older than General Qi.

Source
Lang Xian (狼筅, can be written as 筤筅, lit. 'Wolf brush'), sometimes translated as "wolf bamboo" and "multiple tipped bamboo spear", is arguably the MOST uniquely Chinese weapon ever devised. It is essentially an extremely long bamboo shaft mounted with an iron spike, with branches and leaves still attached. The branches are sometimes fire hardened or attached with blades and hooks and smeared with poison.

The use of Lang Xian was first recorded during a miner's revolt, headed by Ye Zong Liu (葉宗留), around 1444 AD. It was later adopted by Ming army.

Same blog

The famous Yuan Yang Zhen (鴛鴦陣), known to the West as Mandarin Duck Formation, was devised by Ming general Qi Ji Guang (戚繼光) during his campaign against Wokou (倭寇, Japanese coastal pirates). With this formation, Qi Ji Guang never tasted a single defeat in his campaign against Wokou, often completely annihilating his enemy with little to no casualties.

the Mandarin Duck Formation was very simple and straightforward and did not require a high level of martial art skills nor complex maneuvers to be effective (Qi's army was comprised of peasants and miners, most of whom were illiterate). While Mandarin Duck Formation was designed for small engagements, it could be used in large scale battles numbering thousands of troops as well.

When facing the enemy, both swordsmen crouched at the front rank to protect all those behind them with their shields. Once the battle was joined, the swordsman with rattan shield would throw his javelin and made a quick dash to charge at the enemy, while the swordsman with Ai Pai (挨牌) stood his ground. Lang Xian were projected over the head of swordsman to provide cover, and pikemen guarded the left and right flanks of the Lang Xian. If enemy somehow managed to get pass the Lang Xian and pikemen, they had to face the shorter but no less deadly Tang Ba.

Comparison with European pike formations
With the exception of Lang Xian, Qi Ji Guang's tactic seems to draw parallels with the opinions of sixteenth century European military writers such as Sir John Smythe, Matthew Sutcliffe, Niccolò Machiavelli and Raimond de Fourquevaux, which emphasised the advantage of shorter weapons such as halberds or swords, and recommended fewer pikemen but more halberdiers and/or targeteers (sword and target men). In Qi Ji Guang's case, Tang Ba replaced the halberd, and Teng Pai Shou (藤牌手) replaced the targeteers.

This is only natural, as Wokou hardly had any cavalry at all (they were pirates after all), which removed the largest threat to these short weapon troops.

[johnwang]

In stead of using one hand to hold a shield and use the other hand to hold a spear,



if a "small shield" can be attacked at the middle of the spear, you can use both hands to hold that spear along with the protection of the shield. The spike bamboo brushes with spear head is similar to that idea.



This remind me my favor "rhino guard" idea that you

- extend both arms as a spear.



- hide your head behind both arms as a shield.

[Ba-men]

To reply to Ba-men's points:

These units were used by Qi Jiguang against the wako (pirates…Japanese with sizable contingent or maybe even the majority (in some cases) being Chinese), and he wrote about them. The black and white pictures come from one of his books (and the Korean version of same), so they are likely quite accurate.

Good points I wasn't thinking skirmishes I was thinking of nation state vs nation state, professional unit vs professional unit. I'd have to understand the roles and responsibilities of everyone in the unit for myself to gain confidence in the formation. As for the weapon in question it had to be defensive in its primary role. It's sure nature doesn't allow for much offense.

[Ba-men]

As a formation, it looks pretty standard, a shieldman surrounded by polearms.



As far as the funky spears, I guess they're meant to catch the swords and bind them up and help keep them out in the effective range of the other spears. I could see them being hard to track in battle and easy to use just to foul up an advance.

This guy has an eight part series of blog articles breaking it down.

The sword and shieldman's position facing a unit of spears isn't what I'd want to do. he would have to withdraw next to the other shieldman and the spears would fight around both of them like a mobile wall/barrier

Against a unit of spears .... If this drawing is accurate I'm looking at the equivalent of a gunner hanging out of a Blackhawk. He's got 60 seconds to live and at best cause he's a "fire and forget weapon." Other than his shield where is his defense? If he doesn't charge..... and stays,,,, All it would take is a two man team (let alone a team of four on a line with another team of four behind them) attacking him high and another going low. The spearman to his rear give him no real defense for they are out of range.

This isn't a unit designed for major engagements but some type of skirmish

I was just about to close the page, after looking at the formation again..... it might make sense if facing a loose unit of Mao dao skirmishers (as Wang said) or something of that nature (kwan dao etc) that are running and gunning ( what we call "smash and grab" i.e. a loose formation in skirmish order coming in hard, hitting & looking to swarm to the flanks ) The tree branch spears (whatever the name is) looks to check attacks frontally and above. Putting a sword and shield at the head of the formation and using some kind of "pulse tactic" would allow the sword and shield to get inside the longer range mao dao. Once inside their frontage, he's going to reek havoc. The rest of the formation looks to be designed to back him up (keep him alive) or to fan out in a line. In the unit, the sword and shield was probably the only one heavily armored. (being on the high seas ) In the center it looks to be shieldman in a defensive role, maybe to repel someone looking to get inside the spears... honestly though I only see this working against a loose skirmish formation. Since we are talking pirates. I'd have to see it in action, certainly looks doable. I can't see something like this beeing used on the main land.

[wayne hansen]

failed to post

[everything]

Love your big fist invention