the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

So "Bodywork" = Dan ....is that you?

Hi Dan, In regards to your OP.... I'd like to attest that you seemed like a safe enough teacher. I'm not sure if you remember me but I met you...feels like about 10yrs ago. Stan Baker brought me over to a Garage type building turned dojo.
=============================================
In case in anyone was wondering what it was like: I walked in and sat quietly, Stan put some money in the box. To my surprise I saw a Japanese style dojo with guys in Gi's but what you were teaching was very Chinese..."esque". Dan looked like an NFL linebacker in a Gi. He looked tough and that's probably putting it mildly. Haha.

Dan did make me laugh when he walked up, introduced himself and then immediately asked if I was a D..K? Which of course I answered "NO" because I'm always respectful in someone's school.

Dan was in the middle of teaching a student structure. He had a student standing in a horse stance with his arms out to the sides (horizontally palms out) and Dan was correcting him to be able to withstand a push on his palms through his body to the floor, from each side. He touched him and poked at him and gave a bunch of corrections.
* He said to me: " what do you think? "

* I said, "I think you're teaching like a Chinese!!!!" He then told me about his experiences and having met a small Asian man who could move him. He also said that in most of his Japanese arts they never spoke of such things.

My answer was this: "I could do the same thing in 3 corrections" and I got his student to do the same thing in 3!

I told him, 1) lower your level from the Kua down (ala sit your horse correctly), 2) Straighten the spine and lift from the top of the head 3) all 4 limbs and the body itself become as if 5 bows of the body (I explained the bows principle) Wala, the student could hold the posture.

Dan, goes: "who taught you that"? I said, that's the basics in CMA.

Now, I bring all of this up because I find it amazing that such a skilled Japanese Martial artist like Dan seemed to be so very Chinese in detail. How he has evolved in the last decade is probably even more amazing. I don't know but i'd like to see what he's up to.

Now in the other thread that got Locked (Soft Roy) I have met Sensei Goldburg. I was teaching last year at the Saratoga Martial Arts Festival and he was there. In fact, he came up to me after the end of the 1st day and said, "I watched you teaching earlier young man, you're one of the best guys here...and I don't say that to many people". Of course I graciously thanked him...after all I didn't really know the man.

Putting them both together in a recent video series I saw on YouTube, I think it makes sense what Dan was trying to teach. Ala "Aiki: 2 sides of the same coin" analogy. Some good stuff in there. I gotta say though...there's a couple of things in there I have to feel personally for Dan to apply on me to make me believe. I gotta through that out there in case this one ends up getting locked too.

"O"

I was trying to wrap my head around me wearing a gi, then I realized I must have been doing weapons.
Dark blue gi I assume.
Interestingly, back then I hadn't had much exposure to ICMA people, though the few I met kept telling me I felt like Chinese arts. It used to piss me off as I had a very low opinion of CMA. Boy did that opinion change. And as time went on imagine my own surprise to hear similar training models and sometimes exact nomenclature. Makes perfect sense as there was such a profound influence on Japanese arts. One of my first encounters was in Japan doing. Koryu art with a taiji guy who wanted to push on my chest. He was shocked when I didn't move. He had easily moved some other "internal coaches" so he expected the same from me. Then he tried to grab my belt sumo style as he had done with one of them. When he couldn't move me...I got the same reply, "You feel like a ICMA guy."
Three grand masters, and hundreds of ICMA people later, I now see what they were seeing.
Been an interesting exploration.

I do not believe this one bit. Everybody is pushable. No matter how good.

Patrick wrote:I do not believe this one bit. Everybody is pushable. No matter how good.

Small adjustments and adapting to structure while following incoming force...

Bao wrote:

Patrick wrote:I do not believe this one bit. Everybody is pushable. No matter how good.

Small adjustments and adapting to structure while following incoming force...

There's only one way for him to find out -- hands-on. No words/discussions will help this in the slightest.

Patrick wrote:Everybody is pushable. No matter how good.

Of course! It is a matter of magnitude. If you apply big enough force, everything is pushable.
But being able to retain balance against sizeable force while moving freely is an incredible tool for a martial artist. Every single person I've met recognises immediately the potential. Who cares if you can't stop a speeding train or bus?

Dmitri wrote:There's only one way for him to find out -- hands-on. No words/discussions will help this in the slightest.

Alas, your words speak of wisdom.

I don't think he said he was immovable, I think he said:

One of my first encounters was in Japan doing. Koryu art with a taiji guy who wanted to push on my chest. He was shocked when I didn't move. He had easily moved some other "internal coaches" so he expected the same from me. Then he tried to grab my belt sumo style as he had done with one of them. When he couldn't move me...I got the same reply, "You feel like a ICMA guy."

Injuring dozens of people outside of the kwoon isn't surprising at all if you take his generation into account. I know that in the ed parker generation there was at least one guy who would dress up like a "dandy" and hit the docks to fuck with sailors and get into fights to test his skill, I know of another that would dress up in his sunday best and hang a $20 bill out of his pocket and walk through some rough areas in new york so that he could fight people that would try to mug him. I know of someone that literally got a pat on the back and a grunt from mas oyama when oyama asked him why he hadn't seen him in a few months on the tournament scene - he'd been in prison for killing someone in a fight. To be clear, I'm not defending or justifying any of that, but these people were teachers and I can only imagine what happened during challenge matches with them.

I know that in the states and at least into the late 80's challenges happened, and I've seen one myself at the school I started training in back in 1989. I also know someone in australia that got traditional training in IMA while in taiwan and when he was allowed to teach was taken by his teacher from school to school in his hometown and was forced to challenge all takers until his teacher was satisfied.

front wrote:

Patrick wrote:Everybody is pushable. No matter how good.

Of course! It is a matter of magnitude. If you apply big enough force, everything is pushable.
But being able to retain balance against sizeable force while moving freely is an incredible tool for a martial artist. Every single person I've met recognises immediately the potential. Who cares if you can't stop a speeding train or bus?

+100
It's nice to read intelligent, reasoned and thoughtful replies. No need to explain or qualify. You stated it clearly.
Thank you
Dan

......

War stories are war stories
When I started training there were plenty of stories of martial artists going to kings cross in Sydney acting gay to get street hoods to attack them
On further examination most of these were made up or exaggerations
If you wanted to fight herein Australia all you had to do was go to any pub on a Saturday night
Most people I know gave up testing themselves after they started training because they had plenty of that in their background
When hearing these stories consider the source and their reason for telling the story
Where others present
Can they be verified
I know the current generation thinks all of life is on film but in the past it wasn't
We didn't even take identification when we went out at night
If something went down it allowed you to give another name
The world is a different place now
I worked with plenty of Vietnam vets those willing to talk about it were usually store men who saw little action
The forward scouts never said a word

I'm not the current generation and I don't go in for woo woo shit or think the last generation was on a pedestal, hth hand.

Would love to know who the Australian was who battled his way around Taiwan and when that happened

Me, too. No such stories here, although guys like Smith, later Martello are still remembered!

Bodywork wrote:

Dmitri wrote:

Bao wrote:Small adjustments and adapting to structure while following incoming force...

There's only one way for him to find out -- hands-on. No words/discussions will help this in the slightest.

It was nice to read "Fronts" reply. No ridiculous, polarizing, one dimensional characiters or sophomoric insults. No further explanation need be offered.
Of course a profound stability is a daunting foundational skill. One that any grappler in the world would cherish. That the same body mechanics also make you hit and kick like a truck are simply added benefits to an excellent foundation.

What I meant is that mechanics and foundation is one thing, how you react and support your body upon contact (being pushed or hitting someone) is another. Both are skills. In fact, quite different skills. People writing stuff like "Everybody is pushable. No matter how good." usually think a bit one dimensional, only about lifting like a body was a dead object. They usually miss that there are active forces in play in a body that makes our bodies to react upon contact. Reacting and adjusting can be very small, undetectable, but the body must still react and adjust. We can chose to either just act like a dead object while being pushed (chosing not to react) or control how our body reacts upon contact while taking into account how the other body moves and places it's mass.

No, an explanation does not need to be offered. There's no point. Not even to write what I wrote above. If you don't know how to do it by own personal experience and own practice, you can read how much you want, but it still won't become a property of the body. i.e. you still won't be able to do it. So why not give away explanations about what you do to people who are interested? People who might want to take the step further, practice and transform the intellectual knowledge into a property of the body by practicing? If you are the one who can give the physical instruction needed, people will come to you and ask. If you don't give away explanations, people won't know about what to ask and don't know who to ask. So IMHO, no one needs to be afraid to give away anything on the paper, because still only a few can give the proper guidance on how to turn the same things into a real property of the body. But speaking in riddles, saying only a little about something bigger, and mystification OTOH can further confuse and act as a wall that make willing and dedicated people to turn away.

Again... just general observations, random kind of shit...