Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

[willie]

We were discussing how to have that shocking power in Xingyi and he hit me ever so slightly in the chest and I felt my bones rattle.

Look, Tim is an open guy who will always be willing to meet. I know that people have taken private sessions with him just to spar. If you want it first hand, be a big boy and contact him, get it for yourself. But don't be a little bitch and say that Tim (or anyone else for that matter) "wouldn't be able to do that me, har har." If you say that, then we know for sure that you have no idea what you're talking about, clear and simple.

I was the one who said that and i'm not your bitch jack...
I never said that in a way which was meant to be condescending to Tim at all. I even stated that, he would most likely agree with me and say that a lot would
not work on higher level guys. So please stop embarrassing yourself...
Oh and just so you know, i didn't leave that first line there for nothing.

If you think Tim agrees with you then you haven't met him or talk to him. But good luck with those assumptions.

dude, if the door is closed then there is nothing to discuss.
Don't worry, i don't know anything, nothing to see here, good bye.

[everything]

brilliant answer

[dspyrido]

Nei Gung will train the body to be connected, and know how to express power in a flowing manner, with no need to recoil. It will teach the potential and limitations of such in ourselves and in our opponents (them being human too). It does more... but that's enough for this discussion.

Probably the only point in this thread that seems to distinguish something that is different to "external" arts. Not many people can strike rapidly from a very short cold start and do it with enough force & correct placement to damage someone. This is one of the few differences I've found in IMA (or people "internally" skilled) - that the methods of striking & grappling are combined in a subtle way so as to rapidly apply short power to cripple someone.

And they don't usually do it on the ground.

So to bring this back to the OP. I don't think BJJ helps TC (note I am assuming TC is taught in a way that is vigorous & not a health dance - if it is then BJJ will be a big improvement). I think TC can help BJJ in the earlier stages by providing a framework of body methods, principles & a few tactics that BJJ guys can utilise to move beyond a technique mindset but I agree that many of these principles really fall into place after a few years of grappling anyway.

But I don't think BJJ helps TC that much. Why? The techniques are never delivered in the same way due to how they are setup. TC works striking into grappling on the feet & alternates between the two to deliver it at an infighting range. It's not really a stand up submission method but stand up striking method delivered as part of joint locks. The BJJ mindset of "get them to the floor" actually bypasses this so as to apply BJJ's big guns of ground submission. That's submission - not striking. Sure BJJ guys can snap joints but this is usually taught at the end point of the submission - not as impact along the way.

Choldstare this is not to say the points you make are incorrect. I think they are good points but it's just that the points you make are about expanding the tools and working at different levels vs. exploring being better at TCC (or BJJ). The art forms can compliment much like in any MMA format where different styles can fill in gaps but the methods don't directly cross over. Do it for filling in the range gaps of the styles but not because one can clarify the other.

Oh and...

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

Pppft! Royce would choke them both out.

Sakuraba would Sakuraba Lock him .... then go on to get KO'ed by Wanderlai & Mirko. Rocks beats Scissors.

[everything]

Sakuraba was the best!

To beat a dead horse, just do judo for simplicity. You can apply whatever level of whatever you think internal is in two great ranges against full resistance from various grapplers including BJJers who cross train. Although I admit I hate ne waza.

[Bao]

I don't think BJJ helps TC (note I am assuming TC is taught in a way that is vigorous & not a health dance - if it is then BJJ will be a big improvement). I think TC can help BJJ in the earlier stages by providing a framework of body methods, principles & a few tactics that BJJ guys can utilise to move beyond a technique mindset but I agree that many of these principles really fall into place after a few years of grappling anyway.

But I don't think BJJ helps TC that much. Why? The techniques are never delivered in the same way due to how they are setup. TC works striking into grappling on the feet & alternates between the two to deliver it at an infighting range. It's not really a stand up submission method but stand up striking method delivered as part of joint locks. The BJJ mindset of "get them to the floor" actually bypasses this so as to apply BJJ's big guns of ground submission. That's submission - not striking. Sure BJJ guys can snap joints but this is usually taught at the end point of the submission - not as impact along the way.

Some good points.

However, I think that the Tai Chi body and BJJ body are very different. I do of course, believe that Tai Chi is good anti-wrestling practice, as far as speaking about keeping standing up. So standing up, maybe Tai Chi could help BJJ practitioners. And maybe BJJ could help Tai Chi with learning a better set up game for standing wrestling like take downs and maybe for setting up throws. But for other things, I don't believe that neither one of them could help the other very much.

Why? Sorry, I can only speak from my own experience. If a Tai Chi body could help BJJ, BJJ groundfighting would come natural for a tai chi practitioner, be easy to learn and be easy to understand. Well... Right here it isn't. On the floor I suck worse than any BJJ beginner. I hate it, I don't understand it and nothing about it come natural for me. I suck big time and I am perfectly sure that my now almost 30 years of tai chi practice haven't helped me sucking the tiniest little bit less than I possibly could. Some people might think that BJJ and Tai Chi are very similar, but again, from my own experience, I think that the Tai Chi body and BJJ body are in fact very different. IMO, why people find them similar is just because for the reason that for some people both of these arts come very natural. I am sure they can good partners. For this person right here though, they are just not very friendly with each other.

[everything]

When you're just trying to create an inch of space on the ground they don't feel similar at all.

[Josealb]

Thats funny, Bao. Every skilled Taiji guy ive met said they instantly translated their skills, leverage, sensitivity and relaxed heavyness to the ground, and recognized the advantage. Hell, i've rolled a handful of times only, and i did not feel like a fish out of water at all, like you described. Look, lets put it this way, you are not wrong, you are just talking based on your personal experience. All im saying, and all you have to do is keep an open mind, and compare your experience with others. The comparison is super important for advancement in any field, comparing results, understanding why other people get something and you dont and maybe meeting them if you can. Personal experience only, can become a bubble sometimes.

[Fubo]

I think that sometimes when you've done something for a long time, like TJQ, you become accustomed to understand and to feeling the way the principles of said art are expressed… For example, your body understands the "feeling" of "rooting" the way it's trained in TJQ, and it is easy to become accustomed to that "feeling", but if you take the concept of "rooting" to ground grappling (say if you're under someone's cross body), you can still apply the principle, but rather for being transferred from your upper body down to the feet and ground, the path of the force may be coming into one shoulder pointing towards the opponent, and transferred to the other shoulder and back foot that is in contact to the ground. This position may feel awkward and abstract at first, and hard to feel the feeling of "rooting" due to the lack of "sung" in that position, but the principles of body use are completely in line with the body use in the internal arts as I've learned them. I think it takes time, and an "open mind" as Jose suggests, to begin to see the similarities.

[Bao]

Look, lets put it this way, you are not wrong, you are just talking based on your personal experience. All im saying, and all you have to do is keep an open mind, and compare your experience with others. The comparison is super important for advancement in any field, comparing results, understanding why other people get something and you dont and maybe meeting them if you can. Personal experience only, can become a bubble sometimes.

Agree to all of it. Yes, I try to emphasize that I am speaking from my personal POV only. Maybe I just dislike it so much or maybe I am limited in some respects. Maybe a little bit of this and a little bit of this. Regardless what, it's my own flaws. Everyone are different so there's no point of generalizing this way or another. And yes, you should never believe that your personal experience from inside of your own bubble is something general shared by everyone else. I heartily agree.

Thank you for discussing.

Thank you Fubo for your reply.

[Fubo]

Happy to add my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

[willie]

I don't think BJJ helps TC (note I am assuming TC is taught in a way that is vigorous & not a health dance - if it is then BJJ will be a big improvement). I think TC can help BJJ in the earlier stages by providing a framework of body methods, principles & a few tactics that BJJ guys can utilise to move beyond a technique mindset but I agree that many of these principles really fall into place after a few years of grappling anyway.

But I don't think BJJ helps TC that much. Why? The techniques are never delivered in the same way due to how they are setup. TC works striking into grappling on the feet & alternates between the two to deliver it at an infighting range. It's not really a stand up submission method but stand up striking method delivered as part of joint locks. The BJJ mindset of "get them to the floor" actually bypasses this so as to apply BJJ's big guns of ground submission. That's submission - not striking. Sure BJJ guys can snap joints but this is usually taught at the end point of the submission - not as impact along the way.

Some good points.

However, I think that the Tai Chi body and BJJ body are very different. I do of course, believe that Tai Chi is good anti-wrestling practice, as far as speaking about keeping standing up. So standing up, maybe Tai Chi could help BJJ practitioners. And maybe BJJ could help Tai Chi with learning a better set up game for standing wrestling like take downs and maybe for setting up throws. But for other things, I don't believe that neither one of them could help the other very much.

Why? Sorry, I can only speak from my own experience. If a Tai Chi body could help BJJ, BJJ groundfighting would come natural for a tai chi practitioner, be easy to learn and be easy to understand. Well... Right here it isn't. On the floor I suck worse than any BJJ beginner. I hate it, I don't understand it and nothing about it come natural for me. I suck big time and I am perfectly sure that my now almost 30 years of tai chi practice haven't helped me sucking the tiniest little bit less than I possibly could. Some people might think that BJJ and Tai Chi are very similar, but again, from my own experience, I think that the Tai Chi body and BJJ body are in fact very different. IMO, why people find them similar is just because for the reason that for some people both of these arts come very natural. I am sure they can good partners. For this person right here though, they are just not very friendly with each other.

Bao, If your really trying to get the feel for Bjj, i would suggest that you make a trustworthy friend who is at least a blue belt and train with the guy
at home. sometimes there is just too much pressure, as a long term martial artist, to go to someone else's school and learn a whole different art.
Many long term artist's who come from different art's have trouble letting go. You need to forget about trying to beat Bjj with taichi and
just learn Bjj. Then you will be the real deal on both ends. Not that i'm saying that you need it.
Peace

[Fubo]

I see no issue with long term martial artists starting new arts as beginners if they keep their ego's in check.

[Bao]

Bao, If your really trying to get the feel for Bjj, i would suggest that you make a trustworthy friend who is at least a blue belt and train with the guy
at home. sometimes there is just too much pressure, as a long term martial artist, to go to someone else's school and learn a whole different art.

I have had some good people as my tai chi students. They are my friends, I could learn from them.

Many long term artist's who come from different art's have trouble letting go. You need to forget about trying to beat Bjj with taichi and
just learn Bjj. Then you will be the real deal on both ends.

I am not interested In learning BJJ. I don't like it and I see no point learning it.

[willie]

Bao, If your really trying to get the feel for Bjj, i would suggest that you make a trustworthy friend who is at least a blue belt and train with the guy
at home. sometimes there is just too much pressure, as a long term martial artist, to go to someone else's school and learn a whole different art.

I have had some good people as my tai chi students. They are my friends, I could learn from them.

Many long term artist's who come from different art's have trouble letting go. You need to forget about trying to beat Bjj with taichi and
just learn Bjj. Then you will be the real deal on both ends.

I am not interested In learning BJJ. I don't like it and I see no point learning it.

o.K. glad to hear that you have students who also have Bjj. Where i live and in the time when i was doing it there was zero tolorence for
taichi or pretty much any other art in mma schools.
If you went to an MMA school and said yeah, hi , i'm from tai chi, ah 30 years! The guy would just laugh in your face and if you didn't like it,
they would make a nice example of you. a few good leg kicks, bloody nose, or just a continuous amount of embarrassing submissions.
Perhaps times have changed. Now they nurture tai chi in MMA school? LOL! i don't think so...
Ah, the good old days.

[Bao]

o.K. glad to hear that you have students who also have Bjj. Where i live and in the time when i was doing it there was zero tolorence for
taichi or pretty much any other art in mma schools. If you went to an MMA school and said yeah, hi , i'm from tai chi, ah 30 years! The guy would just laugh in your face and if you didn't like it,
they would make a nice example of you. a few good leg kicks, bloody nose, or just a continuous amount of embarrassing submissions.

My good friend and former student do teach in an MMA school. He liked playing free push hands with me and tried shoots and stuff to take me down. He also invited other friends to try to take me down. No one could. They were also surprised when I played with them like toys in free push hands settings. Now, I don't want to sound like anything of a fighter or like someone claiming he could handle anyone. I am none of that. None of it means that I could beat them in a match on their terms or in combat. They tested me and practiced with me politely on my own terms.

Perhaps times have changed. Now they nurture tai chi in MMA school? LOL! i don't think so...
Ah, the good old days.

He invited me to the school. But I think he rather wanted me to study some ground fighting... They seem to have a lot of fun. I envy them. But I just don't understand it.