Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

[Josealb]

I was the one who said that and i'm not your bitch jack...

Stay classy.

[willie]

I was the one who said that and i'm not your bitch jack...

Stay classy.

You too! so you consider other people b.s. attitude classy?
Isn't it a shame that people just cant be nice and respectful in the first place?
You know what i mean right? like the dude who said that G.M.WHJ couldn't even beat a blue belt?
What a joke! Oh, but damn it, i forgot, he had 17 years in a health version to use as his guide for what he
feels Wang could do. Now I want you to think about that.
WHJ is one of the highest level guys in internal arts in the entire world.
So if a reference to him to someone who's asking about internal work is not valid, then nothing is valid.

[Dmitri]

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

[windwalker]

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

well then Its settled, he has less then 20 seconds to get him to the ground.
Of course he could do this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5UdMnyms5E

[Fubo]

I agree. It's not about disrespecting WHJ, or saying his "internal work is not valid". A good blue belt already has a good amount of experience in application with resistance, and is a specialist on the ground. Something that seems to be a fundamental flaw in the logic of some CIMA guys is that their internal development and principles will carry across all ranges of combat (without much if any experience in other ranges) to equalize them with people who specialize in those ranges without the need to train techniques specific to those ranges. That is just not the case, and people (even with years of experience in standup arts) are often surprised at how little they can do on the ground with someone whose been training for a year or 2 once they get on the mats. These kind of discussions were put to rest in the 90s, TBH I'm surprised they're still happening today.

Marc Denny said it best; "you will do in the adrenal state what you have practiced in the adrenal state".

[windwalker]

Something that seems to be a fundamental flaw in the logic of some CIMA guys is that their internal development and principles will carry across all ranges of combat (without much if any experience in other ranges) to equalize them with people who specialize in those ranges without the need to train techniques specific to those ranges.

They do train in all ranges of combat, the fundamental flaw is to think that competitive events are combat. What they don’t train for is competitive events. This is the flaw. Its a flaw for those thinking that competitive events equals combat, its a flaw for those who train combat thinking thinking they can enter into competitive sport events without training for them.

I had a n-mantis teacher many yrs ago, who used his art during the Korean war in as part of a gorilla group hunting down communist who were hiding in the hills. It was interesting in that he didn’t seem to have the ability to really stop what he was doing in sparring with others, meaning that he couldn’t just limit what he had trained to do to just “spar” this allowed some to feel they could tag him not understanding that he allowed this for their safety not his.

Shifu Park Chil Sung was born in 1930 in what is now North Korea. He first began studying gong fu within his family at a very young age (around 7 or 8 years old). He later traveled around the Korean peninsula studying under any master he could find. At that time he met his main master, shifu Lin Ping Jiang.

During the Korean war he along with most other young men from his home town were recruited to fight for the south as gorilla fighters not actually associated with the formal army. After the war he was able to relocate to the south and has not seen his family since then.

Shifu Park Chil Sung worked for some time after the war for the South Korean equivalent of the American CIA, training in hand to hand combat.
He has been teaching at Camp Casey Tongdushon (a U.S. Army post just south of the DMZ - north of Seoul) since the 70's, with many of his students being U.S. Military personnel. In the year 2000 he was still alive and teaching in Korea.

http://geocities.internetarchaeology.or ... /frame.htm
Very interesting teacher, even when he smiled, his eyes where always like shark eyes, very cold,,,


http://www.chinamantis.com/rdh-photo-album.htm
my kung fu bother roger and mr cho

roger introduced me to s-mantis many yrs back, interesting style.
Often the more "real" something is the less one hears about it.....

[Fubo]

I was talking about the guys who don't train in "all" ranges, i.e. the ground. Your mantis teacher adernalized his skill, which was my point. Competition may not equal life and death combat, but it's the closet thing to portions of the "real" fight. Also, while the context is limited to the rule sets, those limitations make the fight even harder because you have tools taken away from you, and your opponent not only has an idea of what you're going to do (making it harder for you to apply), but is also trained in what you do, making it a tougher fight. My competition fights have all been tougher and more challenging than what I've experienced on Da Streets. My point wasn't even about sport vs death match. I feel like you're just hanging on the word "combat" to avoid my point, which is that if your experience is standup, it does not translate into ability to defeat an experienced grappler on the ground.

[GrahamB]

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

Pppft! Royce would choke them both out.

[windwalker]

I feel like you're just hanging on the word "combat" to avoid my point, which is that if your experience is standup, it does not translate into ability to defeat an experienced grappler on the ground.

Not really, my point was/is that one should respect all styles and arrive at some kind of understanding of what they're doing and why.
Your comment could just as easily said “ it does not translate into the ability to defeat an experienced boxer standing up”

David Chin, a noted lama hop gar teacher, also echoed this saying that “'Whatever you do, I don't want. Whatever I do and you don't know - that's how we win.'" http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661

Understand the point about competitions, there are other venues for testing one's self.

[origami_itto]

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

Pppft! Royce would choke them both out.

Yeah but he was an exceptional blue belt.

[Fubo]

There was never disrespect towards anyone's style. stating that a standup guy won't do well against an experienced grappler on the ground is not disrespecting his style. And yes, I always agreed with the reverse, which is why I said the person with more experience within any given range of the fight will most likely win.

David Chin's quote adds to my point that if you don't know the ground, and you find yourself there, a good grappler will beat you even if you have amazing internal skill.

[Josealb]

Whats a gorilla fighter?

[Fa Xing]

We were discussing how to have that shocking power in Xingyi and he hit me ever so slightly in the chest and I felt my bones rattle.

Look, Tim is an open guy who will always be willing to meet. I know that people have taken private sessions with him just to spar. If you want it first hand, be a big boy and contact him, get it for yourself. But don't be a little bitch and say that Tim (or anyone else for that matter) "wouldn't be able to do that me, har har." If you say that, then we know for sure that you have no idea what you're talking about, clear and simple.

I was the one who said that and i'm not your bitch jack...
I never said that in a way which was meant to be condescending to Tim at all. I even stated that, he would most likely agree with me and say that a lot would
not work on higher level guys. So please stop embarrassing yourself...
Oh and just so you know, i didn't leave that first line there for nothing.

If you think Tim agrees with you then you haven't met him or talk to him. But good luck with those assumptions.

[origami_itto]

Whats a gorilla fighter?

[willie]

Standing up, an average BJJ blue belt wouldn't last 20 seconds against someone like WHJ.

But on the ground (i.e. if they're not allowed to stand up), it would be a very different story. Would have to be a very good blue (or higher) belt, but he'd probably submit the guy eventually.

This is a lot closer to reality.
I'm picking up from what my teacher says and meeting wang myself.
He's not going to play...
he isn't going to allow ANYONEto TAKE ANYTHING from him. I would caution anyone to just leave him be, tomorrow is another sunny day.