Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby taiwandeutscher on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:03 pm

Greg J wrote:
GrahamB wrote:
Stage 4 is clear - silk pyjamas, stream the celestial consciousness, faijin into the air and build your ice palace!

Stage 5 - acquire minions and/or extra wives. Spread the message. Seminars.

Stage 6 - retirement plan. Set up franchises. Settle law suits. Grow old disgracefully.



Hahahaha!

Graham, that was hilarious.

Best,
Greg


Yes, I like that, too, a lot!
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby willie on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:12 pm

taiwandeutscher wrote:
Greg J wrote:
GrahamB wrote:
Stage 4 is clear - silk pyjamas, stream the celestial consciousness, faijin into the air and build your ice palace!

Stage 5 - acquire minions and/or extra wives. Spread the message. Seminars.

Stage 6 - retirement plan. Set up franchises. Settle law suits. Grow old disgracefully.



Hahahaha!

Graham, that was hilarious.

Best,
Greg


Yes, I like that, too, a lot!


Not me, i truly feel that he has issues.
Last edited by willie on Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Josealb on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:30 pm

Willie,

Tim has forgotten more internal mechanics than what you have ever learned. Lots of people have met him here, and know that by saying what you said, you just told everyone how little you know. I would be surprised if anyone would take anything you say seriously after that.

You can go quietly into the night now. =)
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:02 am

BJJ starts from technique while TJQ starts from developing body method and then sensitivity with technique being of secondary concern. Generally It seems that the focus on sensitivity over technique comes in around purple belt (at least the people I e talked to and trained with) though some get it earlier. I've met TJQ people with very good sensitivity in a very limited context, but have very few realistic technical options when dealing with a real fight. The few TJQ guys I met that could actually fight trained and drilled technique. To me it's not about either or, it's a balance of both. You need an understanding of technique so you have options in different positions, but you also need sensitivity and a flexible mind so you can change as needed. If you are technically limited you'll be limited in your ability to change.


I understand your point, though "principle" is something else than listening skill. Listening skill is about not thinking in advance or trying to figure out what to do. It's about letting your body decide what to do without letting your intellectual thought, thinking or emotion interfere with this decision. It's much faster and direct than trying to figure something out or testing possibilities. You can either have studied methods from a technical POV or from principles. Principle is to understand the underlying principles of techniques as leverage, angles and balance. Techniques are concrete, exact examples of applying such principles. Studying techniques is also about exploring how to apply principle. How well you learn the underlying principles through technique is IMHO not about this vs that, but about how well a teacher can explain the underlying principles through applications and technical practice. Understanding listening skill and using sensitivity is something else.

I've met TJQ people with very good sensitivity in a very limited context, but have very few realistic technical options when dealing with a real fight.


I am not sure exactly what the problem right here is. IMO a limited skill set is not a very big problem. Also a few principles can be used in various or in unlimited ways. But experienced fighters tend to be simplistic. A common boxer use a very limited set of techniques and if you look at wrestlers and judoka, they tend to focus on a very small set of favourite techniques they use over and over again. Any good Tai Chi practitioner I have met who are asked to demonstrate how Tai Chi really works in a fight, will just put up their fist straight into the face of the person who asks. Tai Chi is a very, very simple and straight forward art of self defence. IMHO the problem is as always the lack of experience and lack of combat practice.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:27 am

willie wrote:
Josealb wrote:Willie,

Tim has forgotten more internal mechanics than what you have ever learned. Lots of people have met him here, ..


Oh and i don't think so.


I don't believe that Tim thinks in terms of "internal" vs "external". So that kind of discussion about his mechanics being more internal or external is rather pointless IMO. What I have seen he is mostly a "thrower" and "wrestler", it seems that his interest lies here, so of course his own personal interest has a direct effect on what mechanics he focus on. He seems to be more interested about trying to use any kind of technique in the most efficient way possibly rather than putting stuff into boxes with different labels. With that said, he doesn't seem to be very interested in theory and traditional Chinese practice, and rather tying to find modern ways to practice and express the practical knowledge of the arts. This is just my superficial understanding of his approach. I don't know him or have practiced with him, so I can be wrong. But I regard highly about his wish to make things approachable from a modern, western POV. In this sense, I think he does much more for the IMA community in general compared to most traditionalists.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby willie on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:30 am

Josealb wrote:Willie,

Tim has forgotten more internal mechanics than what you have ever learned. Lots of people have met him here, and know that by saying what you said, you just told everyone how little you know. I would be surprised if anyone would take anything you say seriously after that.

You can go quietly into the night now. =)


You are very delusional...
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:38 am

I have no idea who tim is
If someone uses an avatar please use that name
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:42 am

I assumed it was Tim Cartmell who was meant, he's BJJ dude after all... :/
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Fubo on Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:29 am

Bao wrote:
BJJ starts from technique while TJQ starts from developing body method and then sensitivity with technique being of secondary concern. Generally It seems that the focus on sensitivity over technique comes in around purple belt (at least the people I e talked to and trained with) though some get it earlier. I've met TJQ people with very good sensitivity in a very limited context, but have very few realistic technical options when dealing with a real fight. The few TJQ guys I met that could actually fight trained and drilled technique. To me it's not about either or, it's a balance of both. You need an understanding of technique so you have options in different positions, but you also need sensitivity and a flexible mind so you can change as needed. If you are technically limited you'll be limited in your ability to change.


I understand your point, though "principle" is something else than listening skill. Listening skill is about not thinking in advance or trying to figure out what to do. It's about letting your body decide what to do without letting your intellectual thought, thinking or emotion interfere with this decision. It's much faster and direct than trying to figure something out or testing possibilities. You can either have studied methods from a technical POV or from principles. Principle is to understand the underlying principles of techniques as leverage, angles and balance. Techniques are concrete, exact examples of applying such principles. Studying techniques is also about exploring how to apply principle. How well you learn the underlying principles through technique is IMHO not about this vs that, but about how well a teacher can explain the underlying principles through applications and technical practice. Understanding listening skill and using sensitivity is something else.

I've met TJQ people with very good sensitivity in a very limited context, but have very few realistic technical options when dealing with a real fight.


I am not sure exactly what the problem right here is. IMO a limited skill set is not a very big problem. Also a few principles can be used in various or in unlimited ways. But experienced fighters tend to be simplistic. A common boxer use a very limited set of techniques and if you look at wrestlers and judoka, they tend to focus on a very small set of favourite techniques they use over and over again. Any good Tai Chi practitioner I have met who are asked to demonstrate how Tai Chi really works in a fight, will just put up their fist straight into the face of the person who asks. Tai Chi is a very, very simple and straight forward art of self defence. IMHO the problem is as always the lack of experience and lack of combat practice.


To your first paragraph, I know the difference between principle and listening. I was talking about listening in direct response to a comment about listening. I don't see listening skill as separate from the techniques or principal, because they all have to work together. The technique of a throw or sweep cannot work well without listening skill. I've heard more than a few times from Judo and BJJ people say that if "you're thinking, you're too late", so I'm not sure where you get the idea that they think through the techniques or what to do next. The whole point in drilling techniques is so that they come out without having to think about them. It's the same as the TJQ form. The forms are drilled over year so the things they develop become first nature. But non the less they are drilling body mechanics that relate to specific groups of techniques, which is why the form for brush knee push is not needle at sea bottom... Like you said, techniques are the concrete examples of principle, they are expressions of principle… I'm assuming you're using the word "concrete" here in the sense that Judo or BJJ people are not working from the perspective or principle, thus are inflexible when faced with changing circumstances. IF that's what you're alluding to, I use to think that way too. I don't think that anymore, because from the people I've experienced they've internalized the techniques they've trained to the point where they base their fight on sensitivity. "Concrete" to me is more about the technique being a specific expression for a specific time and person… Which is why arts like BJJ are continually developing technically, where are the principles stay the same, because different people move differently, are different sizes etc… TJQ seemed to be like that too up until a certain point.

To your second paragraph, I partly agree and partly disagree. I agree that you don't always need to use a lot of tools, but that don't mean experienced guys don't have a big tool box. JJ Machado mentioned that if he goes to a competition, he may only use 1 or 2 techniques, but in order to do less, you need to know more. You used the example of the Judoka using fewer favorite techniques. Yes, high level Judoka don't pull out every throw in the book, but they have a good understand and experience of the majority of throws. The reason they can use fewer throws given changing circumstances is because they understand the principles of their art, and can focus on things like position, timing, leverage, direction, listening… and they understand how to shut down the opponents other options, because he or she has a good understand of a lot of options. As far as the internals go, the people I'm met that seem to be able to use less, know a lot.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Fa Xing on Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:55 am

willie wrote:
Rhen wrote:I think Wang hai Jun would get submitted by a blue belt in a matter of minutes IMO.


are you sure?


I would go farther, I'd say he would be submitted by a white belt with less than 6 months training. And if you can't see the "internal" within Tim's stuff, then you've never seen the real deal. ::) :P 8-)
Last edited by Fa Xing on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Josealb on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:50 pm

Bao wrote:This is just my superficial understanding of his approach. I don't know him or have practiced with him, so I can be wrong.


You are. Before Tim started learning BJJ, he was already extremely good at anything you are trying to do right now, from his xingyi and taiji training. He is a natural, and has always made "complicated things" that you see here being discussed (that i've seen you, Bao, discuss, fumbling with the words to describe, asking questions) very simple to understand. These things, we has a way of dissecting them down, in a practical manner, where the direct evidence of him being right is seen immediately: it either works or it doesnt. He started BJJ, and he was immediately good at it. So good that when he competed, BJJ guys ended up saying that they would go to the ground first while grappling him, because standing up always ended with being thrown (this quote was from years ago, i dont remember the origin). He said from the very beginning that all the principles and mechanic nuances found in good taiji, were present in BJJ, and equally applied on the ground. Its a translation step that people usually miss.

Saying Tim has no internal mechanics (im talking mechanics, not martial arts) is simply dead wrong. You can see it, or should be able to see it. I suppose it depends on who does the seeing.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:55 pm

There are 48 plus orthodox techniques in TCC.

All should be practiced.

one reason for those who have baishi understand is a vow to practice the art not just for our selves but to be able to pass a true transmission down.
as a coach I have trained students to use techniques that became their bread and butter that I personally dislike. We must maintain the art!

the second is more important and ... "internal".

Image

Ting consists of ,
at the bottom left, three horizontal and one vertical line; this character means "disciple".
At the top right there is a cross: this is the number "ten".
At the upper left, what looks like a ladder is the character for "ear".
Below the cross are three boxes: the character for "eye".
At the bottom right is the character for "heart / mind".

So we have a disciple who assiduously (ten times) uses his eyes, ears and mind to listen.

Now...

Nei Gung will train the body to be connected, and know how to express power in a flowing manner, with no need to recoil. It will teach the potential and limitations of such in ourselves and in our opponents (them being human too). It does more... but that's enough for this discussion.

Training the orthodox applications, one must remember that these applications themselves are designed to aid learning, later when proficient we usually combine several orthodox methods as the situation demands and for the desired result. they follow from extensive nei gung practice and contain the styles "shen fa" (though I dislike using a "dance" term).

Practicing these, using them and having them used upon us, "carving again and again" as the classics advise, one recognizes not only the "feel" but the "form" and "tells" of such attempts, and develops an intuition as to their strengths and weaknesses. Further study and familiarity leads to the high-level ability of strategic feints and draws. In other words the ears, eyes and mind are trained to appreciate the forces involved and the warning signs... thus "we can arrive first", recognizing such, or setting traps!
Fighting is not exactly chess... there's no time to take ten minutes before each move! it is vital to develop through gung fu, (which to all, but non-fighters, means study of the application and drilling techniques and sparring), a kinaesthetic ability. And I agree with classic writings, without this "gung" you may practice until you are an old man but you will remain a cripple!

The moronic bullshit written above - frowning upon technique practice as "external" simply indicates an extremely limited "intellectual" understanding of the art, and an utter absence of understanding of nei gung, the foundation of any internal art. An intellectual understanding born thus, in a vacuum of martial testing and proper practice, cannot hope to deliver much truth.
All the nei gung and tuishou in the world without a thorough familiarity with fighting is utterly hopeless, far, far worse skill-wise than those who are intimate with violence yet lack nei gung, as the Yang and Wu writings state quite clearly. No fighter would dare suggest technique practice is not required, or worse that such is an "external" method to an "internal" system! FFS! Clowns!
It is clear from such martially-shy pronouncements, that seek to negate "process", who can and who cannot fight, who can and cannot link the various pillars of training, and thus who truly understands the "internal"!
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:25 pm

Josealb wrote:
Bao wrote:This is just my superficial understanding of his approach. I don't know him or have practiced with him, so I can be wrong.


You are. Before Tim started learning BJJ, he was already extremely good at anything you are trying to do right now, from his xingyi and taiji training.


Maybe so. I haven't seen anything from his earlier days except some throwing, so I really have no idea how great his tai chi or xingyi is. I can only judge things about him from things I see today. And yes, he seems to be very good at throwing people around. With that said, I have the feeling he took his arts in that direction very early. I have no idea about what other skills have he has developed. And I won't believe that someone is great at every aspect aspect of these arts just because some random guy says it on a discussion board. Everyone have weaknesses.

He is a natural, and has always made "complicated things" that you see here being discussed (that i've seen you, Bao, discuss, fumbling with the words to describe, asking questions) very simple to understand.


It's easy to make things simple to understand if you not only simplify, but constantly oversimplify things and generalize things. But sure, he is very good at making people listen to what he says.

He said from the very beginning that all the principles and mechanic nuances found in good taiji, were present in BJJ, and equally applied on the ground. Its a translation step that people usually miss..


I've heard him saying something similar. I have no idea what he personally mean by "all the principles and mechanic nuances found in good taiji", so I don't know if I could agree with it or not, but it's the kind of oversimplification and generalization that lead nowhere. I see no point in such statements. IMHO it's sometimes even better to make things slightly more complicated than necessary. At least it keeps you humble so you don't go around and believe that you know everything about everything. Which means that you keep an open mind and are willing to develop and get better.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby Fa Xing on Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:05 pm

Josealb wrote:
Bao wrote:This is just my superficial understanding of his approach. I don't know him or have practiced with him, so I can be wrong.


You are. Before Tim started learning BJJ, he was already extremely good at anything you are trying to do right now, from his xingyi and taiji training. He is a natural, and has always made "complicated things" that you see here being discussed (that i've seen you, Bao, discuss, fumbling with the words to describe, asking questions) very simple to understand. These things, we has a way of dissecting them down, in a practical manner, where the direct evidence of him being right is seen immediately: it either works or it doesnt. He started BJJ, and he was immediately good at it. So good that when he competed, BJJ guys ended up saying that they would go to the ground first while grappling him, because standing up always ended with being thrown (this quote was from years ago, i dont remember the origin). He said from the very beginning that all the principles and mechanic nuances found in good taiji, were present in BJJ, and equally applied on the ground. Its a translation step that people usually miss.

Saying Tim has no internal mechanics (im talking mechanics, not martial arts) is simply dead wrong. You can see it, or should be able to see it. I suppose it depends on who does the seeing.


Well-said. Tim actually wrote the book on internal mechanics, yes it was related to throwing/takedowns. I study Xingyiquan with him, as well as baguazhang. Not only do we focus on wrestling and grappling, but he has shown me how to have whole body power while striking. Tim has hit me even in the most mild sense, and it hurts. We were discussing how to have that shocking power in Xingyi and he hit me ever so slightly in the chest and I felt my bones rattle.

Look, Tim is an open guy who will always be willing to meet. I know that people have taken private sessions with him just to spar. If you want it first hand, be a big boy and contact him, get it for yourself. But don't be a little bitch and say that Tim (or anyone else for that matter) "wouldn't be able to do that me, har har." If you say that, then we know for sure that you have no idea what you're talking about, clear and simple.
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Re: Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

Postby willie on Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:10 pm

Fa Xing wrote: We were discussing how to have that shocking power in Xingyi and he hit me ever so slightly in the chest and I felt my bones rattle.

Look, Tim is an open guy who will always be willing to meet. I know that people have taken private sessions with him just to spar. If you want it first hand, be a big boy and contact him, get it for yourself. But don't be a little bitch and say that Tim (or anyone else for that matter) "wouldn't be able to do that me, har har." If you say that, then we know for sure that you have no idea what you're talking about, clear and simple.


I was the one who said that and i'm not your bitch jack...
I never said that in a way which was meant to be condescending to Tim at all. I even stated that, he would most likely agree with me and say that a lot would
not work on higher level guys. So please stop embarrassing yourself...
Oh and just so you know, i didn't leave that first line there for nothing.
Last edited by willie on Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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