Applying Internals/Tai chi Chuan to modern arts (BJJ/MMA)

[origami_itto]

In re the op, after two years you're barely scratching the surface of the external side of taijiquan. You will have a couple tools but not much.

[willie]

By all means, go roll with Tim and get film.

I would pay to see you take him down a peg.

don't get the wrong impression, i also said a lot of his stuff looks very good.

[choldstare]

In re the op, after two years you're barely scratching the surface of the external side of taijiquan. You will have a couple tools but not much.

I haven't stopped training Taiji just my teacher moved away and haven't really found a place to continue my training under another teacher. Just been practicing form and neigong

if you can study with Tim, by all means, do that! you can debate about this or that later. He is the one who steered me toward judo. I agree about the art vs. the sport point. There is bad over-muscled judo but that is EXCELLENT for you to develop your "4 oz vs. 1000 lbs" thing. Another plus for judo is it has plenty of groundwork. No need to mix taiji and bjj on your own. And no, it won't mess up your taiji. Your taiji will only help you.

Yes, my teacher really liked Tim and his material I aim to meet and train with him when I get an opportunity. I like all the information that Greg j sent me in the videos. From the videos I watched and what people told me Tim is able to apply a lot of what he learned in the chinese arts in BJJ it's just not clear how he went about translating it? Do you just train in parallel and it opens up more and more and makes sense or do you try to apply and make sense of the taiji classics in bjj? I still do various Neigong/bodywork type exercises that help me I just hope the training is complimentary and i'm not just blindly swimming in a direction.

if you can study with Tim, by all means, do that! you can debate about this or that later. He is the one who steered me toward judo. I agree about the art vs. the sport point. There is bad over-muscled judo but that is EXCELLENT for you to develop your "4 oz vs. 1000 lbs" thing. Another plus for judo is it has plenty of groundwork. No need to mix taiji and bjj on your own. And no, it won't mess up your taiji. Your taiji will only help you.

We do a decent amount of throws and standup at the club i train but I will definitely start going to a Judo focused place to learn more . I'm currently training gi and no gi with like 15% standup at my current club.

might've broken a pinky toe.

Cheers

Don't use your little toes for Dim Mak, it has to be the big toe and make sure you note the time of day and the moon phase when using it!

Ah.. how foolish of me. thank you sensei, brb going to test it on my cat.

[Fubo]

I've got about 20 years in the internals and I've also trained Judo and BJJ (both after I had been training Taiji and Bagua). I'll give you, the OP, my perspective for what it's worth. Like you and Graham, I experienced that some of the attributes developed in the internal arts indirectly transferred over to the BJJ and Judo training, though it didn't help with getting submissions or not getting submitted in the beginning, because BJJ is just technically different. I consider BJJ an internal art because at it's best it uses the internal principles as I understand them (since there are differing opinions on what "internal" means, others will feel differently). With that in mind, if you have a good BJJ teacher, you won't really have to try to retrofit your Taiji into your BJJ, because the principles of body use and application should be there, even if the terminology is different. With the assumption that you've already got a decent grasp of Taiji, with more time in BJJ you'll start to understand, and then feel, the similarities between the arts and how they utilize the same principles. How you sink your weight in Taiji is technically different than how you'd do it when you're in cross body, but the principle is the same.

My humble advice to you is to try avoid retrofitting your BJJ with your Taiji too early on, because you'll likely miss important lessons. This goes for Judo too. Judo and Taiji function under similar principles, though there are some differences in body method and how those principles are applied. I would learn the BJJ and Judo as you're taught them without actively trying to combine them with your Taiji in the beginning. Once you have a good grasp of Judo and BJJ, it'll be easier to start experimenting with body method etc...

[Fubo]

His chokes aren't even centered, the tip of the elbow should be centered.
A lot of his techniques are relying on poor ding, that shit won't work on me at all.

That choke is called a "short choke", which is different from the RNC with the elbow inline with the chin. Different choke for different situation. Both work.

[everything]

how he went about translating it?

Nvm his talent and hard work for a moment; if you read Tim's book on effortless throws, he more or less boils the answer to this Q down to one center controls the other center (there are various techniques, angles, etc. so the devil is in the detail). I'm sure in your bjj school, they said "position before submission" and hopefully you rolled for position some, especially against wrestlers and other experienced grapplers. Judo can seem to have a bit frivolous, extraneous gripfighting (imho) that distracts from this principle, but in reality the same principle is there. Same as in taiji. It is very fun to compare/contrast randori, rolling, ph (usually the lamest but it shouldn't be). Good luck. I miss doing all this stuff, but there are more fun things to do than MA, believe it or not.

[willie]

His chokes aren't even centered, the tip of the elbow should be centered.
A lot of his techniques are relying on poor ding, that shit won't work on me at all.

That choke is called a "short choke", which is different from the RNC with the elbow inline with the chin. Different choke for different situation. Both work.

I view it as a bar choke.
I bet if you asked Tim himself if what i said was true about some of those techniques that will not work on good taiji players i bet he
would tell you that himself.

[Ian]

His chokes aren't even centered, the tip of the elbow should be centered.
A lot of his techniques are relying on poor ding, that shit won't work on me at all.

That choke is called a "short choke", which is different from the RNC with the elbow inline with the chin. Different choke for different situation. Both work.

I view it as a bar choke.

Yes, bar chokes / short chokes are a thing.

So the thing you said about 'it wouldn't work because the tip of the elbow isn't centered'... is just wrong, isn't it?

Count how many times the tip of the elbow isn't centered.

[Fubo]

His chokes aren't even centered, the tip of the elbow should be centered.
A lot of his techniques are relying on poor ding, that shit won't work on me at all.

That choke is called a "short choke", which is different from the RNC with the elbow inline with the chin. Different choke for different situation. Both work.

I view it as a bar choke.
I bet if you asked Tim himself if what i said was true about some of those techniques that will not work on good taiji players i bet he
would tell you that himself.

It's about the skill level, not the technique. If the person applying it has more experience compared to the person defending, then it'll work, just like any other legitimate technique.

[Patrick]

I think this is not really that beneficial. Of course, you can use attributes developed from sport A in sport B. But it would be wise to rather directly enhance the attributes required for sport B through specialized training (i.e. acyclical endurance training, strength endurance, dynamic flexibility) or sport specific exercises.

[GrahamB]

I've got about 20 years in the internals and I've also trained Judo and BJJ (both after I had been training Taiji and Bagua). I'll give you, the OP, my perspective for what it's worth. Like you and Graham, I experienced that some of the attributes developed in the internal arts indirectly transferred over to the BJJ and Judo training, though it didn't help with getting submissions or not getting submitted in the beginning, because BJJ is just technically different. I consider BJJ an internal art because at it's best it uses the internal principles as I understand them (since there are differing opinions on what "internal" means, others will feel differently). With that in mind, if you have a good BJJ teacher, you won't really have to try to retrofit your Taiji into your BJJ, because the principles of body use and application should be there, even if the terminology is different. With the assumption that you've already got a decent grasp of Taiji, with more time in BJJ you'll start to understand, and then feel, the similarities between the arts and how they utilize the same principles. How you sink your weight in Taiji is technically different than how you'd do it when you're in cross body, but the principle is the same.

My humble advice to you is to try avoid retrofitting your BJJ with your Taiji too early on, because you'll likely miss important lessons. This goes for Judo too. Judo and Taiji function under similar principles, though there are some differences in body method and how those principles are applied. I would learn the BJJ and Judo as you're taught them without actively trying to combine them with your Taiji in the beginning. Once you have a good grasp of Judo and BJJ, it'll be easier to start experimenting with body method etc...

Yes, I'd agree. I'd also add, don't "try" to do anything of much - your Tai Chi just "is", if you are practicing it a lot is should be effecting the way you move, and that should just show up in BJJ, not be something you mentally have to add.

Once the "panic" of rolling has died down (takes a few years) one thing you can try to play with is 'moving from the dantien' while rolling. It's interesting and new things develop.

I'm listening to the audio book of Art of Learning by Josh Watskin at the moment - he went from Chess (famous child prodigy) to Tai Chi (William Chen) to BJJ (Marcelo) and wrote the book to try and describe the things he internalised as intuitive - actually break them down into steps. It's interesting.

[middleway]

I'm listening to the audio book of Art of Learning by Josh Watskin at the moment - he went from Chess (famous child prodigy) to Tai Chi (William Chen) to BJJ (Marcelo) and wrote the book to try and describe the things he internalised as intuitive - actually break them down into steps. It's interesting.

Good book. I have been recommending it for years now and it was an early inspiration to go my own way. Also well worth listening to his interviews with Tim Ferriss on his podcast and watching the Tim Ferriss experiment on Vimeo. awesome guy. Another book for after is 'The Talent Code'. Another really good exploration on how to gain skill.

As for the subject. I have been using 'internal' stuff in BJJ for a while now too good effect, especially and specifically on people who outweigh me by many 10's of kgs. I find this is where it is especially useful. Its all very practical and works well.

But as others have already said i think the initial focus for people new to BJJ or Judo should be ... BJJ or Judo... there is much to learn and much of that is the tiniest details, how to grip here, how to use the hips there. Trying to do it 'Your way' in the early days will almost always land you in a world of sloppy technique and getting destroyed every roll.

[GrahamB]

Darn - spelled his name wrong: Josh Waitzkin

Cool dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9sYyYUS54k

[middleway]

That transition/scamble Marcelo does with Kron is insane. Love that guy.

[willie]

that dudes opinion of whats internal and what taiji is, is so far off that i couldn't help but laugh my ass off.
stage 1, dude has no clue what real taiji is, period.
stage 2, next the board shows me video's of dude doing push hands with the some champ which i have already seen.
stage 3, neither have ever seen real taiji.
stage 4?