Is fitness the ultimate key?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby grzegorz on Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:29 pm

I work a ton and I don't have a lot of time right now to attend regular group sessions so I mostly do a boxing/kettlebell routine these days. It occurs to me that it is not enough for competitions or anything but that dealing with an athlete in a fight can't be good. Almost to the point where I am becoming convinced that this is the edge that top fighters have. Obviously skills are skills but without fitness then forget about it.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:55 pm

You're flying in the face of 100 years of "chi belly" masters there mate.... good luck! :)
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby grzegorz on Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:25 pm

GrahamB wrote:You're flying in the face of 100 years of "chi belly" masters there mate.... good luck! :)



True that!
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Patrick on Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:13 am

Yes, it is one of the major aspects of performance and health. A lot of research is out there :)
Sensible goal oriented strength, endurance and flexibility training has a lot more benefits than typical low impact IMA training.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Taijispirit on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:34 am

Ultimate key..? its key alright if you're fighting , but for street self defense...not sure its the ultimate key.
Top athlete's conditioning means little after getting poked in the eyes or kicked in the balls...common to see top shape mma fighters,muay thai, silat, all sots of martial artist get stopped with an eye gouge or a swift kick in the balls.
my old teacher could gouge your eye out as soon as you twitched a muscle.
Conner Mcgregor said it best , accuracy and timing beats speed and power.
The soft can overcome the hard..
as they say...
Timing is Everything!
Last edited by Taijispirit on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:50 am

I'm down.

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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby middleway on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:15 am

Ultimate key..? its key alright if you're fighting , but for street self defense...not sure its the ultimate key.
Top athlete's conditioning means little after getting poked in the eyes or kicked in the balls...common to see top shape mma fighters,muay thai, silat, all sots of martial artist get stopped with an eye gouge or a swift kick in the balls.
my old teacher could gouge your eye out as soon as you twitched a muscle.
Conner Mcgregor said it best , accuracy and timing beats speed and power.
The soft can overcome the hard..
as they say...
Timing is Everything!


Taijispirit. some assumptions going on there. I actually have a large amount of experience with 'street' work from working on the doors for a long time, both the violence on the job and the resulting vendettas that come from that line of work. All of the best and most capable guys kept themselves in relatively good shape in that non sportive environment. I am not talking Ripped athlete, but they all lifted heavy things regularly and worked on their general strength and conditioning to a moderately good level.

The reasons for NOT focusing on your general fitness and conditioning truly pale in comparison to the benefits of doing so in my opinion.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:28 am

Athletic skill sets should be defined and are relatively specialized according to usage.
Swimmers are not runners, rock climbers are not swimmers.

Some mention was made of qi bellies, apparently in jest, the assumption that the
Qi belly is not due to some type of training unique to IMA arts or art.
I would say dantain, or hara is very develop among those who truly have IMA skill sets.
This might account for what some view as a qi belly.

“Almost to the point where I am becoming convinced that this is the edge that top fighters have. Obviously skills are skills but without fitness then forget about it.”


It may be true for someone working in a very defined environment against others also working in the same environment.
For day to day living fitness to me spans many things, lifestyle, food, ect.

If one practices to really meet IMA requirements, this is also very physically demanding. Much of it depends on depth and skill level one is working for.
There are many things that those who are “fit” in other areas actually work against the type of fitness that IMA develops. Much of the posting on
this site revolves around the confusion about this.

IME it depends more on time, and intended goal. If one wants to be “fit” in the IMA sense then more "right" practice is key.
TIme and goal is key….hard to manage in today's busy lifestyle .
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Patrick on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:38 am

There is no confusion. Motor fitness (as health factors) is specifically defined and can be measured.

Cardio vascular system: VO2max
Endurance: lactat steady state
Strength: Fmax
Explosive power: ΔF
Flexibility: ranges of motion
etc.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:13 am

Patrick wrote:There is no confusion. Motor fitness (as health factors) is specifically defined and can be measured.

Cardio vascular system: VO2max
Endurance: lactat steady state
Strength: Fmax
Explosive power: ΔF
Flexibility: ranges of motion
etc.


your already confused,
not to derail the thread.
Find an IMA teacher with real skill sets,
this should clear it up.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Patrick on Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:19 am

yeah sure. That solves everything ;D
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby I am... on Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:48 am

At the amateur level and below, yes fitness is 90% of it if not more. When you get above that, then high level fitness is a given, and skill and mindset become the focus to gain one's edge.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Taijispirit on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:09 pm

middleway wrote:
Ultimate key..? its key alright if you're fighting , but for street self defense...not sure its the ultimate key.
Top athlete's conditioning means little after getting poked in the eyes or kicked in the balls...common to see top shape mma fighters,muay thai, silat, all sots of martial artist get stopped with an eye gouge or a swift kick in the balls.
my old teacher could gouge your eye out as soon as you twitched a muscle.
Conner Mcgregor said it best , accuracy and timing beats speed and power.
The soft can overcome the hard..
as they say...
Timing is Everything!


Taijispirit. some assumptions going on there. I actually have a large amount of experience with 'street' work from working on the doors for a long time, both the violence on the job and the resulting vendettas that come from that line of work. All of the best and most capable guys kept themselves in relatively good shape in that non sportive environment. I am not talking Ripped athlete, but they all lifted heavy things regularly and worked on their general strength and conditioning to a moderately good level.

The reasons for NOT focusing on your general fitness and conditioning truly pale in comparison to the benefits of doing so in my opinion.

Addressing the question about fitness being the ulimate key.. not, "is being in condition better than not being in condition?", that's obvious and a no brainer.
No one is suggesting reasons for not focusing on general fitness........obviously being in shape is better than not being..but is it the Ultimate key ?, age, skill and maturity factors in a lot..
WIll a 80 year old internal master compare equally to the fitness levels of a 25 -30 yr. old, probably not, but the "master" could handle a strong conditioned 25-30 yr. old easily.
I take wisdom "skill" & strategy over strength and conditioning.
still the question was...Is fitness the "ultimate key "?
Last edited by Taijispirit on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:29 pm

Taijispirit wrote:
Addressing the question about fitness being the ulimate key.. not, "is being in condition better than not being in condition?", that's obvious and a no brainer.
No one is suggesting reasons for not focusing on general fitness........obviously being in shape is better than not being..but is it the Ultimate key ?, age, skill and maturity factors in a lot..
WIll a 80 year old internal master compare equally to the fitness levels of a 25 -30 yr. old, probably not, but the "master" could handle a strong conditioned 25-30 yr. old easily.
I take wisdom "skill" & strategy over strength and conditioning.
still the question was...Is fitness the "ultimate key "?


+1 ;)
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Steve James on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:54 pm

Imo, it depends. At the Olympic level, everybody is in super shape. The athlete in the best condition will not be the winner of any competition. In a cycling event, tactics will mean as much or more --but that's because everyone's in great shape. Otoh, there will always be someone who's trained better or has peaked at the right time; for example, when there's a world record set.

However, 99% of the population will never approach world class condition. So, we're not really talking about them. Will the guy in better shape (or stronger and faster) win a competition or a fight? Nope. Can it make "THE" difference is another matter. If it's a 12 round bout of three minute rounds, fitness will matter at the end of the fight. While I totally agree that, in a "fight," fitness might be meaningless. But, I'd say that the fit person will always have a better chance to survive the beating, if he's losing.

I also agree that some old guys with skill (or without) can beat younger and stronger guys. But, they're the exceptions. And it's not because youth always beats age. It's because there are always too many variables to predict. If the outcome is predestined, then it's not really a fight. It's like Douglas v Tyson or Clay v Liston. Iow, it's a fight.
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