Is fitness the ultimate key?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:53 am

grzegorz wrote:Yes, but you also stated in "many cases" which is where we disagree. If you do 12 hours of manual labor a day you find ways to "relax" while doing it otherwise the work would be impossible.


IMO, relaxation has little to do with it. It's about how typical manual labor will not necessarily better prepare/condition one's body for TCMA/IMA.

If your line of reasoning is correct, then farmers, construction workers, lumberjacks, and miners should all be able to excel in TCMA/IMA and pick it up much faster than an average joe. Would you say that's true?

My Fujian White Crane teacher was in his 90s when I trained with him, and he told me how he used to teach FWC in the countryside of central Taiwan back in the 1950s and 60s. The town was a farming community, and the majority of his students were farmers in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. He said he hated teaching them because years of robotic and repetitive manual labor in the fields had left their muscles "dead" and ingrained bad habits into their movement. It was very difficult to "undo" and "rewire" their bodies to move in the manner required of a crane style practitioner.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:17 am

The town was a farming communities, and the majority of his students were farmers in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. He said he hated teaching them because years of robotic and repetitive manual labor in the fields had left their muscles "dead" and ingrained bad habits into their movement. It was very difficult to "undo" and "rewire" their bodies to move in the manner required of a crane style practitioner.


Hmm, but I thought that part of this argument was cultural: i.e., that is China, the preference was for the creation of a certain type of fitness for martial arts. So, if Chinese farmers developed "fitness," it would be along the Chinese cultural model.

However, if the example above is representative --which actually seems reasonable-- then the previous arguments about the results of hard labor are accurate, and apply regardless of the culture. Of course, farmers needed to work hard to live. Learning martial arts is either a necessity (for soldiers and criminals) or a luxury for people who did not have to spend their days working hard. The people with that much free time have always been the exceptions to the rule. But, they didn't need to be fit, either. I don't think that means that fitness was a disadvantage, though.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby grzegorz on Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:05 am

Exactly and the length of time it takes for someone to pick up a crane form has nothing to do with fighting either.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Steve James on Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:14 pm

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsod ... -gatherers

After the countdown to New Year's, Americans start thinking about upping the intensity of their workouts or making room in their schedule for a boot camp.

But the men and women of the Hadza, a group of hunter-gatherers in Northern Tanzania, have no need for resolutions to be more active.

Anthropologist Herman Pontzer, an associate professor at Hunter College, and his collaborators distributed GPS units with heart rate monitors to a group of Hadza adults. The goal was to use the gadgets to pinpoint the level of physical activity in Hadza life.

What Pontzer and his collaborators reported in a study published in October in the American Journal of Human Biology is that the Hadza are moving much of the time, typically in moderate and sustained activity rather than vigorous bursts.


I tried to find a photo of a Hadza with a pot belly. For them, though, it would be a luxury.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby vadaga on Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:37 am

how far is your commute- I recommend biking if it's not too far...
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:50 am

Steve James wrote:http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/01/03/507562845/staying-fit-isnt-a-new-years-resolution-for-these-hunter-gatherers

After the countdown to New Year's, Americans start thinking about upping the intensity of their workouts or making room in their schedule for a boot camp.

But the men and women of the Hadza, a group of hunter-gatherers in Northern Tanzania, have no need for resolutions to be more active.

Anthropologist Herman Pontzer, an associate professor at Hunter College, and his collaborators distributed GPS units with heart rate monitors to a group of Hadza adults. The goal was to use the gadgets to pinpoint the level of physical activity in Hadza life.

What Pontzer and his collaborators reported in a study published in October in the American Journal of Human Biology is that the Hadza are moving much of the time, typically in moderate and sustained activity rather than vigorous bursts.


I tried to find a photo of a Hadza with a pot belly. For them, though, it would be a luxury.
Image


Put a couple fast food joints next to their village and that will change. It's easy to be lean when you have to move to survive.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:49 pm

It's easy to be lean when you move.


Fixed.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby vadaga on Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:08 pm

Steve James wrote:
It's easy to be lean when you move.


Fixed.

+1
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:47 pm

Steve James wrote:
It's easy to be lean when you move.


Fixed.


Both my uncles, paternal and maternal, weighed over 350lb. I weigh 190lb at 49 years of age. I used to run, not jog, 50-65 miles a week and now run 3-6 hours a week (I don't count miles anymore) and have never been lean. Have you ever seen a Samoan marathoner? Maybe they just need to get moving.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Steve James on Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:07 pm

That's very true. Genetics certainly have an influence on body type. However, this thread is about "fitness." There's no doubt that a person who's not thin (Sammo Hung's size and larger) can also be fit. Your point addressing the picture of the Hadza said that if there were fast food places nearby they wouldn't be the same size.

That contradicts your point about body types because you suggested that they were thin because they had to move to survive. No, they might be thin if they ate 3 cheeseburgers a day and sat on their butts. But, yes, it was the amount of time they spent moving that contributed to their fitness. They don't have to "exercise." But, imo, fitness without exercise is pretty much impossible for those of us who live in cities; and, by exercise, I mean moving.

In terms of the arguments raised in this thread, the fact that fitness has always been related to survival. The herd is thinned starting with the weak and slow. As they say, the fastest lion doesn't have to catch the fastest buffalo. The fact that many people are not "fit" is because there's no need for them to be. Exercise is not a requirement (unless one does physical work). I have to believe that only people with a lot of leisure time could ever have the time to work on martial arts. Well, except for people who needed them for their survival.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:08 pm

Steve James wrote:That's very true. Genetics certainly have an influence on body type. However, this thread is about "fitness." There's no doubt that a person who's not thin (Sammo Hung's size and larger) can also be fit. Your point addressing the picture of the Hadza said that if there were fast food places nearby they wouldn't be the same size.

That contradicts your point about body types because you suggested that they were thin because they had to move to survive. No, they might be thin if they ate 3 cheeseburgers a day and sat on their butts. But, yes, it was the amount of time they spent moving that contributed to their fitness. They don't have to "exercise." But, imo, fitness without exercise is pretty much impossible for those of us who live in cities; and, by exercise, I mean moving.

In terms of the arguments raised in this thread, the fact that fitness has always been related to survival. The herd is thinned starting with the weak and slow. As they say, the fastest lion doesn't have to catch the fastest buffalo. The fact that many people are not "fit" is because there's no need for them to be. Exercise is not a requirement (unless one does physical work). I have to believe that only people with a lot of leisure time could ever have the time to work on martial arts. Well, except for people who needed them for their survival.


Their diet is unspoiled which is a huge contributing factor. People lose weight these days by cutting carbs without exercising. Tim Ferris's 4 hour body shows how to do it. But I need the carbs. Sugar is my downfall. But the Hadza have none of those temptations. The American diet has more to do with us being fatter than we should be. After a marathon everyone has a burger and a beer.
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Re: Is fitness the ultimate key?

Postby vadaga on Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:54 am

Taste of Death wrote:
Steve James wrote:That's very true. Genetics certainly have an influence on body type. However, this thread is about "fitness." There's no doubt that a person who's not thin (Sammo Hung's size and larger) can also be fit. Your point addressing the picture of the Hadza said that if there were fast food places nearby they wouldn't be the same size.

That contradicts your point about body types because you suggested that they were thin because they had to move to survive. No, they might be thin if they ate 3 cheeseburgers a day and sat on their butts. But, yes, it was the amount of time they spent moving that contributed to their fitness. They don't have to "exercise." But, imo, fitness without exercise is pretty much impossible for those of us who live in cities; and, by exercise, I mean moving.

In terms of the arguments raised in this thread, the fact that fitness has always been related to survival. The herd is thinned starting with the weak and slow. As they say, the fastest lion doesn't have to catch the fastest buffalo. The fact that many people are not "fit" is because there's no need for them to be. Exercise is not a requirement (unless one does physical work). I have to believe that only people with a lot of leisure time could ever have the time to work on martial arts. Well, except for people who needed them for their survival.


Their diet is unspoiled which is a huge contributing factor. People lose weight these days by cutting carbs without exercising. Tim Ferris's 4 hour body shows how to do it. But I need the carbs. Sugar is my downfall. But the Hadza have none of those temptations. The American diet has more to do with us being fatter than we should be. After a marathon everyone has a burger and a beer.

Certainly the case. Ribs and beer for me I think it was :D
That being said after doing a bit of reading year before last about alcohol deterring muscle growth I generally don't drink after strenuous training sessions nowadays, rather I save it for the light days...

@Greg from what it sounds like with your work and garage training I'd say you don't need to do much more heavy stuff besides the occasional long interval session to work your heart and lungs, swimming or biking should do it. Just make sure to mix in some high intensity stuff into an hour session
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