Running and its effects on qi

[zrm]

Wan Lai Sheng might be old-school compared to us, but keep in mind he was among the first generation of CMAists who were exposed to Western boxing as well as systematic athletic training. He even taught for years at various government-funded provincial sport colleges throughout his life. As for Sun Lu Tang, there are indeed accounts of him being extremely agile and fast on his feet. But I've not come across any account of him using running as a means to acquire those abilities.

Wan Lai Sheng used to do all kinds of modern military training from his days in the Nationalist army. Running, swimming and push-ups come to mind. But he would also sometimes do the Ziranmen version of circle walking at a sprinting/running pace. His teacher Du Xing Wu could "circle walk" extremely quickly (one news reporter described it as a "blur") and was well known for parkour like stunts (running up walls, running across beams etc) as was Sun Lu Tang. I guess it depends on whether you classify doing xing yi line practice or circle walking at a runners pace or running or not?

[Peacedog]

ZRM,

That is an important data point and good to know.

I experimented with running the orbits while running long distances (9 plus miles usually) for awhile and the effects were curious. Endurance was enhanced as was speed.

Two significant side effects were noted however. First, it was very easy to push the body past its limits. I remember a few times doing this in 110 degree (43 degrees Celsius) plus weather in the desert and felt fine while moving, but the second I stopped I collapsed from a combination of heat stress and dehydration. The second effect could only be described as having my spirit continue to run out in front of my body for a few seconds after stopping running. This was not a comfortable sensation and disturbing on a number of levels.

My suspicion regarding yogic/meditative/qigong enhanced strength and speed is that one of the mechanisms at play is a progressive disabling of the body's self-protective mechanisms. While this is certainly NOT the only mechanism at play, I think it is responsible for a lot of the odd middle aged and old age injuries in some of the higher level players.

Do you have any experience with doing WLS's circle walking technique while running?

[zrm]

I've had some interesting experiences doing prolonged circle walking at a jogging/running pace. After a while you can get into a harmonized rhythm with the arm and legs with a kind of feedback loop that feels much stronger than a what you would get from regular jogging or running. There is a definite mental perception of increased endurance and speed although I've never tested that scientifically. On some occasions I've also ended up with a few physiological side effects after some sessions akin to what you would get from a large adrenaline rush. The best way I could describe it is that it feels as though that instead of walking in circles you feel as though you have been skydiving instead and are now coming down after that initial rush but are still in an elevated state.

[Peacedog]

Thanks.

Sounds like a fire element effect from a Hermetic perspective. I'll have to play with it for awhile. Granted, I'm sure my circle walking is shit compared to yours, but I'll give it a shake.

[meeks]

Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it.

So does this mean the body is unable to replenish its own energy?

Would it not make sense to tax the energy reserves of the body so that it becomes more efficient (and in better shape) to utilize these reservoir?

I disagree with this fall back position, as much as when I hear people say "If you sweat during training, you're not being internal"...

[C.J.W.]

Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it.

So does this mean the body is unable to replenish its own energy?

Would it not make sense to tax the energy reserves of the body so that it becomes more efficient (and in better shape) to utilize these reservoir?

I disagree with this fall back position, as much as when I hear people say "If you sweat during training, you're not being internal"...

Sure, the body is able to replenish its own energy, but what happens when you overtax the energy reserves?

Even modern sports medicine acknowledges the various negative effects of overtraining -- chronic fatigue, insomnia, loss of appetite, weakening of the immune system -- you name it.

Don't think there's much room for debate here.

[Peacedog]

In terms of CNS exhaustion and overtraining, the CNS tap test seems to work well. A link to an app is here: http://smudge.io/cnstaptest/

While qi gong responds well to the stress adaptation model, just like any conventional form of exercise, exceeding those limits usually results in trouble.

Malfunctions of the nervous system, respiratory and digestive systems are most common. The range of malfunction can range from simple discomfort to life threatening.

Overtraining, while generally uncommon, largely starts as an impaired recovery issue and progresses from there. Manic, or self-destructive behavior, can result in fairly serious injuries and damage over the long term. Crossfit enthusiasts have even been known to cause rhabdomyolysis.

In terms of damage to qi, overtraining probably manifests as a kidney qi deficiency and, again, progresses from there.

Long term more recent studies seem to indicate the accumulated oxidative stress from excessive endurance work may contribute to cancer, arthritis, etc. I suspect this is where the traditional Chinese sources gave their warnings regarding damaging your qi through excessive activity.

[Rhen]

Running if it created excess sweat will exhaust and damage the blood in Chinese medicine. Qi is yang and blood is yin in Chinese medicine.

[Steve James]

Well, "over-training" specifically means training to the point of injury and/or to the point where recovery is not possible. In terms of this discussion, all Olympic athletes "overtrain." Otoh, "training" itself is meant to stress the body over its current limits. It doesn't really matter what one trains.

At any rate, I have no clue how to compare a shuai jiao practitioner's "qi" to that of a tjq practitioner's. I do agree that overtraining hurts the body in general.

[meeks]

Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it.

So does this mean the body is unable to replenish its own energy?

Would it not make sense to tax the energy reserves of the body so that it becomes more efficient (and in better shape) to utilize these reservoir?

I disagree with this fall back position, as much as when I hear people say "If you sweat during training, you're not being internal"...

Sure, the body is able to replenish its own energy, but what happens when you overtax the energy reserves?

The body adapts and you get into better shape...

Even modern sports medicine acknowledges the various negative effects of overtraining -- chronic fatigue, insomnia, loss of appetite, weakening of the immune system -- you name it.

Don't think there's much room for debate here.

now your changing the parameters of the discussion. The discussion is about 'draining the qi' from exercise and now you're taking it to a level of chronic fatigue and weakened immune system... you want to state that exercising to the point of exhaustion makes you sick? Debate? yea, there's debate. Name a single athlete that is successful because they didn't break a sweat or push their body either to the limit or past its limit in efforts to make it stronger. Don't kid yourself... 'keeping your qi' is an excuse for lackluster martial arts skills. And to state that if you tire the body out you get chronic fatigue instead of a more efficient use of the body? I'm trying to say this as respectfully as possible, but I would find it difficult to accept you've ever trained very hard if you think that you need to 'keep your qi' as a reason for avoiding exercise.

[shawnsegler]

Everyone who uses the word qi on this forum should watch this hour long video. The whole thing. They only need to watch it once...but they should watch the whole thing.

[grzegorz]

I have heard that during the Soviet years speed walking was something that all Soviet Olympic athletes did. Although I only heard this once I believe in a Tim Ferris interview so although I can't confirm or verify it to be true or not I can see the benefits of speed walking since you are pushing your body yet not to an extreme where you will do the damage that comes with running over the decades.

[Bao]

Everyone who uses the word qi on this forum should watch this hour long video. The whole thing. They only need to watch it once...but they should watch the whole thing.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1YilBJY-rk&index=1&list=PLJ6Ih12FYfxgOcug8fL1dP6BYqMRWX8Z7 ]

Yes, it's an excellent seminar. Many different things are explained. Like why teachers who speak about qi all of the time are really, really ignorant....

[windwalker]

Everyone who uses the word qi on this forum should watch this hour long video. The whole thing. They only need to watch it once...but they should watch the whole thing.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1YilBJY-rk&index=1&list=PLJ6Ih12FYfxgOcug8fL1dP6BYqMRWX8Z7 ]

Yes, it's an excellent seminar. Many different things are explained. Like why teachers who speak about qi all of the time are really, really ignorant....

interesting background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRHy7EBrFY

[origami_itto]

Everyone who uses the word qi on this forum should watch this hour long video. The whole thing. They only need to watch it once...but they should watch the whole thing.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1YilBJY-rk&index=1&list=PLJ6Ih12FYfxgOcug8fL1dP6BYqMRWX8Z7 ]

Yes, it's an excellent seminar. Many different things are explained. Like why teachers who speak about qi all of the time are really, really ignorant....

interesting background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZRHy7EBrFY

So there, why doesn't he do it to Bill? Why only students who have been training with him find three or more years? That's the part that strains credibility.