Running and its effects on qi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Running and its effects on qi

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:21 pm

I'm starting a new discussion to elaborate on the point I made earlier in "Is Fitness the Ultimate Key" thread in relation to running. The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies. I also mentioned that running for health and fitness is "a relatively new and Western concept that did not exist in ancient China." And here's why.


In TCM, the strengthening and conservation of qi are key to improving one's health, and one of the best ways to strengthen qi is through regular physical exercise. Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it. For this reason, any type of exercise that causes a person to gasp for air and breathe laboriously over an extended period of time is usually frowned upon -- with running being a prime example. And whenever one begins to breathe hard during running, it's a sure sign that the heart and lung have gone into overdrive, and the qi that was supposed to be evenly distributed throughout the body and the other organs (e.g., liver, spleen/stomach, kidneys) has all been moved to the heart and lung in order to compensate. The result is that it puts the body in an unbalanced state that is only meant to be temporary -- such as in a fight or flight emergency.

The sweating that comes with running -- or any type of hard exercise for that matter --is another problem. While mild sweating has the effect of detoxification, excessive sweating can also cause too much qi to disperse, depleting the body's qi reserve.

The ancient Chinese understood this very well, which is why qigong or any other health-promoting exercises such as baduanjin and yijingjin are always done at slow-speed, and that running has never been touted as a means to good health.


Here's an interesting article that shows western medicine has found increasing new evidence against running and begun to catch on:

http://www.prevention.com/fitness/how-walking-healthier-running


As a side note, I've read a theory put forth by several TCM professors and doctors that explains why Westerners gravitate towards long-distance running and hard competitive sports. It has to do with the diet.

Westerners usually consume larger quantities of animal protein, dairy products, and wine compared to the Chinese on their traditional diet. Wine and Animal protein, especially beef and mutton, are considered "yang" foods that boost qi and blood, while dairy products add heat and moisture (or dampness) to the body. In order to get rid of all the extra qi, heat, and moisture, the body naturally needs to exercise harder and sweat more -- hence the penchant for laborious workouts and head-bashing, body-slamming contact sports.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:26 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I'm starting a new discussion to elaborate on the point I made earlier in "Is Fitness the Ultimate Key" thread in relation to running. The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies. I also mentioned that running for health and fitness is "a relatively new and Western concept that did not exist in ancient China." And here's why.


In TCM, the strengthening and conversation of qi are key to improving one's health, and one of the best ways to strengthen qi is through regular physical exercise. Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it. For this reason, any type of exercise that causes a person to gasp for air and breathe laboriously over an extended period of time is usually frowned upon -- with running being a prime example. And whenever one begins to breathe hard during running, it's a sure sign that the heart and lung have gone into overdrive, and the qi that was supposed to be evenly distributed throughout the body and the other organs (e.g., liver, spleen/stomach, kidneys) has all been moved to the heart and lung in order to compensate. The result is that it puts the body in an unbalanced state that is only meant to be temporary -- such as in a fight or flight emergency.

The sweating that comes with running -- or any type of hard exercise for that matter --is another problem. While mild sweating has the effect of detoxification, excessive sweating can also causes too much qi to disperse, depleting the body's qi reserve.

The ancient Chinese understood this very well, which is why qigong or any other health-promoting exercises such as baduanjin and yijingjin are always done at slow-speed, and that running has never been touted as a means to good health.


Here's an interesting article that shows western medicine has found increasing new evidence against running and begun to catch on:

http://www.prevention.com/fitness/how-walking-healthier-running


Thanks CJW,

Very interesting
My teacher at 94 now was/is old school he once mentioned this to me but
never really explained it....as you've outlined. ;)

Having said this, the practice it self was/is very demanding.
Having come from an CMA background I thought I could just copy some of the things they did.
In doing so I injured my legs for a little while and learned a good lesson.
Not all types of fitness are the same.

I once asked the grand son how one could get better in practice he said
"the more pain one can endure the deeper ones practice can get"
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby everything on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:43 pm

CJW, are you a runner? From a practical pov I'd say just keep it 70% or easier.

From a theoretical pov would like to hear more. Modern culture's obsession with running as the only thing seems stupid. I know so many weekend warriors who overtrain then put the stupid sticker on their cars. :D
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:54 pm

Edited
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby GrahamB on Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:57 pm

You lost me at "don't have enough Qi in their bodies"
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:19 pm

everything wrote:CJW, are you a runner? From a practical pov I'd say just keep it 70% or easier.

From a theoretical pov would like to hear more. Modern culture's obsession with running as the only thing seems stupid. I know so many weekend warriors who overtrain then put the stupid sticker on their cars. :D


No, I'm not a runner anymore and haven't been for years. My dad was a colonel in the Taiwanese Army, so you can imagine how he used to make me run every day as a kid to stay fit. But instead of getting healthier, I developed asthma and an array or other minor ailments, which troubled me for years until I finally found the right TCM doctor who told me to stop running and try qigong, Taiji, baduanjin, Yoga, walking, or other mild exercises.

I agree that moderation is the key. And the thing about moderation, from the TCM viewpoint, is that it all depends on the person. What is enough for you may be too much or too little for me. Like I said in my last post, Westerners on their traditional diets are better suited for running than Asians. Some individuals who are lucky enough to be endowed with high levels of qi and blood prenatally (think elite athletes or that kid you grew up with who was always stronger and faster than everyone else) can also run and still become healthier from it.

But as a general rule of thumb, pushing yourself beyond your limit cardiovascularly over a long period of time is never a good thing. I'm sure you are aware of the gaunt physique of a typical marathon or long-distance runner? A TCM doctor would look at it and say it's a telltale sign that they have damaged their "spleen and stomach (a term used to refer to digestive system responsible for muscle growth," which causes the muscles to waste away.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby dspyrido on Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:16 pm

Gross generalization to say running is bad but that is almost exactly how people take a tcm concept that relates to overtraining and superimpose it for whatever lifestyle decision they wish to make. The same is even true for the article. He states that running an average of 7 miles per hour for 2-3 hours can lead to issues. Well duh. It can and for some it does.

I am not an expert on the myriads of tcm conflicting concepts but from what I have seen it all comes back to balance (yin/yang), observation & understanding. Understand your body, know your limits and train within on a regular basis to gradually improve and life will look fondly at you.

Balance:

Do not overtrain - it messes joints, organs and many other things.
Do not undertrain - just think of those who cant walk up stairs without nearing a heart attack.

All this can be applied to sweating, breathing, stretching, lifting weights, sparring or anything.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:23 pm

C.J.W. wrote: I'm sure you are aware of the gaunt physique of a typical marathon or long-distance runner?


The methods of long distance running are very close to principles used in IMA. More important than physique is conservation of energy, economy of movement and breathing. If you don't have the method and techniques, no fitness will help.

It's very interesting to watch videos teaching long distance running, it's like watching a Tai Chi vid. They same just about the same things. But I think it was my Xingyi stance work more than Tai Chi that taught my running. You know, relax through the pain and learn to continue to breath and relax the breath despite pain. :) If you can practice IMA when you run, running should be pretty good for the qi. Right? :)
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:57 pm

Bao wrote:
C.J.W. wrote: I'm sure you are aware of the gaunt physique of a typical marathon or long-distance runner?


The methods of long distance running are very close to principles used in IMA. More important than physique is conservation of energy, economy of movement and breathing. If you don't have the method and techniques, no fitness will help.

It's very interesting to watch videos teaching long distance running, it's like watching a Tai Chi vid. They same just about the same things. . . .

From http://www.chirunning.com/about/staff-p ... nny-dreyer,

Danny Dreyer is the co-founder of ChiRunning and ChiWalking, revolutionary forms of moving that blend the subtle inner focuses of T'ai Chi with running and walking. His work is based on his study of T'ai Chi with Master Zhu Xilin and internationally renowned Master George Xu, and his 35 years of experience, running, racing ultra marathons and coaching people in “intelligent movement." He has taught thousands of people the ChiRunning and ChiWalking techniques with profound results.


Uploaded on Jan 25, 2011
Like this video? Catch more episodes at CTolleRun.com!

Feeling the effects of those long runs? Tired of nagging injuries? Join Carrie as she learns about a new form of running called Chi Running! Chi Running/Chi Walking instructor Chris Fuller shows us the 5 Mindful Steps and gives other helpful advice along the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYNZUioUdHQ&t=276s
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby middleway on Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:15 am

This is interesting to me in that it highlights a problem I see in the 'older is as relevant as newer' mindset. 60 years ago doctors were prescribing cigarettes to people to cure problems ... we have moved past that outdated idea. But because ideas are even older they are somehow better founded or more relevant?

Aside from the fact that so many old school IMAists ran daily and lived into old age slim rather than fat. (Wan lai sheng and Sun Lu Tang both spring to mind). As i said in the other thread, this information is precisely why TCM doctors should not be approached when thinking about 'fitness' or increasing performance through training. They are operating on an outdated and inferior model of the way the human body works.

That might piss some of the romantics here off but such is life. Go to a good personal trainer and nutritionist, they will get you fit and healthy. They will look at your blood work using modern scientific methods to look at everything from your hormone profiles to your lipids, they will assess your posture, your muscle strength, your mobility etc and work to bring all of these things into optimal ranges. They are more qualified and have better information.

Honestly, if, in the face of overwhelming evidence on the effects of CORRECT and appropriate running, people still choose the woo woo of ancients with absolutely no comparable idea about the mechanisms of the human body ... i dont know what to say.

TCM has its place for athletes, but should stay in its lane, that is the lane of rehab or recovery and even then it should only be one small part of a larger routine founded on modern knowledge.

thanks.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby GrahamB on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:19 am

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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby RobP3 on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:24 am

C.J.W. wrote:I'm starting a new discussion to elaborate on the point I made earlier in "Is Fitness the Ultimate Key" thread in relation to running. The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies. I also mentioned that running for health and fitness is "a relatively new and Western concept that did not exist in ancient China."


Running is a new concept?

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/training.html

"For this, we are told by Vegetius, during the summer months the soldiers were to be marched twenty Roman miles (18.4 miles/29.6 km), which had to be completed in five hours. A further part of basic military training was also physical exercise. Vegetius mentions running, long and high jump and carrying heavy packs.
During the summer swimming was also a part of training. If their camp was near the sea, a lake or river, every recruit was made to swim."

AS for the rest - IMHO an oversimplification that any non "Ancient Chinese" exercise is some form or totally external, robotic "meathead" training
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:45 am

C.J.W. wrote:I'm starting a new discussion to elaborate on the point I made earlier in "Is Fitness the Ultimate Key" thread in relation to running. The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies. I also mentioned that running for health and fitness is "a relatively new and Western concept that did not exist in ancient China." And here's why.


In TCM, the strengthening and conservation of qi are key to improving one's health, and one of the best ways to strengthen qi is through regular physical exercise. Exercise, however, is a double-edged sword, since exercising too much or too hard will actually drain the qi as opposed to replenish it. For this reason, any type of exercise that causes a person to gasp for air and breathe laboriously over an extended period of time is usually frowned upon -- with running being a prime example. And whenever one begins to breathe hard during running, it's a sure sign that the heart and lung have gone into overdrive, and the qi that was supposed to be evenly distributed throughout the body and the other organs (e.g., liver, spleen/stomach, kidneys) has all been moved to the heart and lung in order to compensate. The result is that it puts the body in an unbalanced state that is only meant to be temporary -- such as in a fight or flight emergency.

The sweating that comes with running -- or any type of hard exercise for that matter --is another problem. While mild sweating has the effect of detoxification, excessive sweating can also cause too much qi to disperse, depleting the body's qi reserve.

The ancient Chinese understood this very well, which is why qigong or any other health-promoting exercises such as baduanjin and yijingjin are always done at slow-speed, and that running has never been touted as a means to good health.


Here's an interesting article that shows western medicine has found increasing new evidence against running and begun to catch on:

http://www.prevention.com/fitness/how-walking-healthier-running


As a side note, I've read a theory put forth by several TCM professors and doctors that explains why Westerners gravitate towards long-distance running and hard competitive sports. It has to do with the diet.

Westerners usually consume larger quantities of animal protein, dairy products, and wine compared to the Chinese on their traditional diet. Wine and Animal protein, especially beef and mutton, are considered "yang" foods that boost qi and blood, while dairy products add heat and moisture (or dampness) to the body. In order to get rid of all the extra qi, heat, and moisture, the body naturally needs to exercise harder and sweat more -- hence the penchant for laborious workouts and head-bashing, body-slamming contact sports.


Always interesting the push back from others trying to reconfirm
their ways or ideas of training without first understanding the other's perspective.

More so on what is billed as an IMA site specifically as it relates to Chinese MA.
One would think that most would want to know how and why something is put forth regarding practices that they say they practice.

My own teacher mentioned this but not in such detail, he just said that this or that was not really good to do, with out providing the background as you’ve done. ;)

Lots of things he would say or do that seemed counter to western ideas or thought.
He was an example of his training doing things that could not be explained completely when viewed through the lens
of the west.

It was interesting as the locals there while they knew and lived the culture had adopted a somewhat western outlook.
In so doing so kind of cut themselves off from something that they should have had an advantage in understanding.
While I coming from a western culture emptied myself of it, suspending my own ideas allowing me to grasp things in
a way with out judgement of what was being presented on its own terms.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby everything on Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:35 am

It's not about old vs new.

They are more similar than different. It's more about moderation vs overdoing it. In new studies walking had about as much aerobic benefit as running without the cons of stress on joints and repetitive use injuries.

That said, as a soccer player, I always want to run less (it's the stopping and cutting that is so hard actually; running is easy), but yet I want an improved cardio base. If you go at 70% you will improve and raise your 70% higher without getting these injuries my friends get (multiple surgeries all related to too much linear, distance running).

I would think Baguazhang should be similar, although frankly the footwork is far easier.
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Re: Running and its effects on qi

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:09 am

I think that the most successful militaries have always emphasized "fitness" --for military duties. I'm sure the idea of effortless, no labored combat would have been preferred. Our present spec-ops forces must surely have terrible qi, but they have to stay alive. I think that's the "oldest" mindset. Afa civilians in old China, being an agricultural country, it's hard to believe that most of the population had to sweat and breathe heavily for a living. So, I think they'd automatically be fit, by our standards, especially when young. And, it's for the elderly and relatively unfit or ailing for whom I think the qi for health emphasis and exercises were directed.

We just had a whole thread on General Qi's manual. Even if he didn't make his troops run, they were already farmer-fit, just untrained.
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