Running and its effects on qi

[BeerlessBoxer]

You lost me at "don't have enough Qi in their bodies"

I have had a feeling/idea that some aspect of Qi could be understood as interstitial fluid ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_fluid ) which is the link between circulatory system and tissue cells, and thereby the way which cells get their nutrition and maintain healthy metabolism.

"not enough Qi" could be then understood as having somewhat chronic issue of dehydration or imbalance/deficit of nutrients within the fluid(or whole body..). And heavy exercising in such condition would most likely be harmful in long term. But how relevant is such condition today in modern world, when there is abundance of clean water and food, I have no idea.. I suppose it depends on which group of people we are observing and where in the world..? Hardcore nerds who rarely exercise and eat too much trash could be perhaps one example of deficient Qi? Or the starving children in Africa...

Any competent modern healthcare professional or personal trainer/etc... would most likely notice the issue in their patients/customers, but would of course identify and diagnose it with very different words, than deficient Qi..

And within this idea, heavy exercising would deplete the fluid of nutrients, sweating depletes the fluid itself, and thereby "drains Qi"... This aspect of Qi allthought is not very hard to get back if you're healthy and can get good nutrition and rest.

[everything]

Any competent modern healthcare professional or personal trainer/etc... would most likely notice the issue in their patients/customers, but would of course identify and diagnose it with very different words, than deficient Qi.

they don't have time for that with insurance and employer pressure. they ask for some symptoms, match it to billable codes, send you on your way, with pressure to do that in 7 minutes. more money from procedures if possible. if your provider can make you "healthy" good for you, I suppose.

[C.J.W.]

I'm starting a new discussion to elaborate on the point I made earlier in "Is Fitness the Ultimate Key" thread in relation to running. The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies. I also mentioned that running for health and fitness is "a relatively new and Western concept that did not exist in ancient China."

Running is a new concept?

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/training.html

"For this, we are told by Vegetius, during the summer months the soldiers were to be marched twenty Roman miles (18.4 miles/29.6 km), which had to be completed in five hours. A further part of basic military training was also physical exercise. Vegetius mentions running, long and high jump and carrying heavy packs.
During the summer swimming was also a part of training. If their camp was near the sea, a lake or river, every recruit was made to swim."

AS for the rest - IMHO an oversimplification that any non "Ancient Chinese" exercise is some form or totally external, robotic "meathead" training

What I meant to say was a new concept that was most likely introduced to the Chinese due to contact with Western cultures that took place during the late Qing Dynasty (from mid-19th century to early 20th century).

[C.J.W.]

This is interesting to me in that it highlights a problem I see in the 'older is as relevant as newer' mindset. 60 years ago doctors were prescribing cigarettes to people to cure problems ... we have moved past that outdated idea. But because ideas are even older they are somehow better founded or more relevant?

Aside from the fact that so many old school IMAists ran daily and lived into old age slim rather than fat. (Wan lai sheng and Sun Lu Tang both spring to mind). As i said in the other thread, this information is precisely why TCM doctors should not be approached when thinking about 'fitness' or increasing performance through training. They are operating on an outdated and inferior model of the way the human body works.

That might piss some of the romantics here off but such is life. Go to a good personal trainer and nutritionist, they will get you fit and healthy. They will look at your blood work using modern scientific methods to look at everything from your hormone profiles to your lipids, they will assess your posture, your muscle strength, your mobility etc and work to bring all of these things into optimal ranges. They are more qualified and have better information.

Honestly, if, in the face of overwhelming evidence on the effects of CORRECT and appropriate running, people still choose the woo woo of ancients with absolutely no comparable idea about the mechanisms of the human body ... i dont know what to say.

TCM has its place for athletes, but should stay in its lane, that is the lane of rehab or recovery and even then it should only be one small part of a larger routine founded on modern knowledge.

thanks.

Wan Lai Sheng might be old-school compared to us, but keep in mind he was among the first generation of CMAists who were exposed to Western boxing as well as systematic athletic training. He even taught for years at various government-funded provincial sport colleges throughout his life. As for Sun Lu Tang, there are indeed accounts of him being extremely agile and fast on his feet. But I've not come across any account of him using running as a means to acquire those abilities.

As for my opinion on running, this is what I wrote in my original post:

"The gist of my statements is that, from the point of view of TCM, running long distances or at fast speed is detrimental to health for people who don't have enough qi (and/or blood) in their bodies."

So running is only bad if you are going too hard and too fast or do not have enough qi. And if you are one of those lucky people who are blessed with more than enough of it either prenatally or due to diet, feel free to run.

[RobP3]

What I meant to say was a new concept that was most likely introduced to the Chinese due to contact with Western cultures that took place during the late Qing Dynasty (from mid-19th century to early 20th century).

Ah no worries, gotcha

[Fubo]

According to Ren Guangyi, people in the Chen village run and lift weights as part of their training to prepare for push hand competitions. There are al sort of advisories you hear in CMA like not lifting weights... and then you see the same guys moving around a large heavy spear or broad sword.

[Bao]

According to Ren Guangyi, people in the Chen village run and lift weights as part of their training to prepare for push hand competitions.

Well yeah... They practice to use strength and overpower. That's much easier than using Tai Chi principles.
... So western people go to the village and practice forms and are taught to practice Tai Chi principles. ...While the village guys runs and practice weight lifting and doesn't give a shit about principles. And if they practice form, they do it for performance and competition only. And so many foreigners goes there to find the origin of the Tai Chi art. I don't know anything about this of course, I haven't been there and never met any of those amazing Chen guys who preserve the oldest version of Tai Chi... I guess everyone must have ran and practiced weightlifting on Chen Wangting's time as well.

[C.J.W.]

According to Ren Guangyi, people in the Chen village run and lift weights as part of their training to prepare for push hand competitions. There are al sort of advisories you hear in CMA like not lifting weights... and then you see the same guys moving around a large heavy spear or broad sword.

It's true that the use of heavy weapons is an integral part of power training in many traditional CMA systems, but IMO it is meant to condition the body to develop attributes that are difficult to replicate using conventional weight training methods that we see in a typical modern gym.

[Steve James]

Imo, if the competitors from Chen village started lifting weights and running, it's because when skill levels are similar strength and stamina can make a difference. I don't think that's the same as simply trying to overpower the opponent. And, if it were, the whole point of tcc would be that someone weaker can defeat someone who's stronger. However, I don't think the claim is that one can defeat someone who is both stronger and more skillful.

[jimmy]

A lot of anthropological evidence seems to suggest that humans are primarily adapted to long distance running as an evolved function of their original savanna habitats.
Endurance running and the evolution of Homo
Persistence hunting
Endurance running hypothesis

[daniel pfister]

According to Ren Guangyi, people in the Chen village run and lift weights as part of their training to prepare for push hand competitions. There are al sort of advisories you hear in CMA like not lifting weights... and then you see the same guys moving around a large heavy spear or broad sword.

Fubo,

Any idea what that weight-lifting regime looked like? Was it really just traditional heavy weapons training as some here suspect?

[C.J.W.]

Imo, if the competitors from Chen village started lifting weights and running, it's because when skill levels are similar strength and stamina can make a difference. I don't think that's the same as simply trying to overpower the opponent. And, if it were, the whole point of tcc would be that someone weaker can defeat someone who's stronger. However, I don't think the claim is that one can defeat someone who is both stronger and more skillful.

I tend to think that they started lifting and running for a couple of reasons:

1. They have been exposed to Western athletic training methodology.

2. Since their goal is mainly to compete in and win PH competitions, modern inventions which have been turned into wrestling-like, rule-restricted competitive sporting events (and criticized by many for being far-detached from the original purpose of PH training), they actually DO need to rely on strength and stamina to come out on top.

I agree that someone who is both stronger and more skillful will have an edge over someone who only has one or neither of the two attributes -- but depending on how the concept of "strong" is defined and viewed. If it's strong in the conventional sense, as in" I can lift heavier weights than you," then I don't think it's necessarily an advantage from Taiji's perspective. On the other hand, if strong means "my structure/peng jin is greater and my root is more stable than yours," then yes, it would be very useful.

[C.J.W.]

FYI, I've seen pics of Chen Zhiqiang with his shirt off looking rip like a gym rat while doing bicep curls with dumbbells.

[Ron Panunto]

According to Ren Guangyi, people in the Chen village run and lift weights as part of their training to prepare for push hand competitions.

Well yeah... They practice to use strength and overpower. That's much easier than using Tai Chi principles.
... So western people go to the village and practice forms and are taught to practice Tai Chi principles. ...While the village guys runs and practice weight lifting and doesn't give a shit about principles. And if they practice form, they do it for performance and competition only. And so many foreigners goes there to find the origin of the Tai Chi art. I don't know anything about this of course, I haven't been there and never met any of those amazing Chen guys who preserve the oldest version of Tai Chi... I guess everyone must have ran and practiced weightlifting on Chen Wangting's time as well.

They didn't need to run and lift weights in Chen Wanting's time. They were already physically fit from farming and/or soldiering.

[Bao]

They didn't need to run and lift weights in Chen Wanting's time. They were already physically fit from farming and/or soldiering.

Yes... I know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt."[1][2] Sarcasm may employ ambivalence,[3] although sarcasm is not necessarily ironic.[4] "The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflections".[5] The sarcastic content of a statement will be dependent upon the context in which it appears.[6]

....

Understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's or writer's intentions; different parts of the brain must work together to understand sarcasm. This sophisticated understanding can be lacking in some people with certain forms of brain damage, dementia and autism (although not always),[15] and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.[16][17] Research has shown that people with damage in the prefrontal cortex have difficulty understanding non-verbal aspects of language like tone, Richard Delmonico, a neuropsychologist at the University of California, Davis, told an interviewer.[18] Such research could help doctors distinguish between different types of neurodegenerative diseases, such as frontotemporal dementia and Alzheimer's disease, according to David Salmon, a neuroscientist at the University of California, San Diego.[18]

The quote wasn't meant to be offensive in any way. ...
...There is in fact a very interesting difference between the village people and to what people Sun Lutang taught. Two very different worlds. How then could the arts look the same? Or be taught in the same way?