The ideal physique: East vs. West

[Steve James]

I've met GSP, and in street clothes you wouldn't say he looked very different from an average guy. He couldn't win any bodybuilding contests; neither could Hughes . Ok, I know, different topic.

I also think that the point about martial artists (and soldiers) being considered lower class is important. If there were an "ideal" physique, it would not have been that of a martial artist or someone who worked hard all day in the fields. By contrast, the Greeks and Romans idealized athletes. The emperor Comodus comes to mind --for more than one reason.

[johnwang]

You pick up a bad example. 卜恩富（Bu En Fu), a SC guy, also a boxer without:

- potbelly,
- wide hips,
- thin arms, and
- unmuscular chest.





[/quote

What kind of body shape will someone who trains

- external first and train "internal" later on?
- "internal" first and train external later on?

卜恩富（Bu En Fu) is a good example. The real world does not only contain black and white. There is a color called "grey" too.

[Overlord]

Wkfung108,

Nice post that reflects yours perspective on the topic.

In the CMA training I've been exposed to, dantien and kua are the two main areas of focus, and ones that requires the most hard work to develop. More specifically, we train to engage the dantien and open/close the kua to produce power. When done right over a long period of time, the bones, muscles, and fascia in the hip and waist areas will naturally become thicker, wider, and/or rounder. (Keep in mind that I'm not saying this will make you look like a fat couch potato with a ghetto booty, just that it changes the proportions of the body and makes it appear more "bottom heavy" as opposed to "top heavy.")

As for the built of modern fighters, I NEVER meant to argue that they had huge muscles like bodybuilders. The point is that they are more "top heavy" -- which obviously means they train and rely on upper body for power more than lower body.

As for those chests and biceps, not sure about you, but they do look quite muscular to me. Also note how their lower bodies appear smaller in proportion to the upper bodies.

Sure, genes play a role in the size of a person's lower body, but IMO, the proportion of one's body also directly reflects how they train over the long term.

CJW,

I agree with you.
But people don't understand.
Shurangama Sutra says : 譬如澄清百千大海，棄之，惟認一浮漚體，目為全潮，窮盡瀛渤。

[willie]

The reason why mma fighters keep themselves lean is because they want the win. It's safer fighting in lighter weight classes.
Moving up in weight classes is much harder then moving down. Many Pro boxers who gained
all that muscle weight lost when they went and fought a Natural heavy weight. It's just not the same thing.

In tai chi you can expect some stomach distension, it's almost unavoidable.
Americans tend to unconsciously hold their stomach in and chest out. This limits the flow of qi to the ground causing
top heaviness. A good tai chi guy does not hold that tension, in time the belly will begin to distend. It sucks because mine is doing it too
and I hate it.

[willie]

I suspect Tai Chi started getting more expensive when richer / higher class people started getting interested in it

It's because there is a shortage of very high level guys, so they can charge a lot. you have to get one on one with them, there is no other way
of not only getting that type of skill but also even being aware that it exists in the first place.

As you read the pages on this site you will see a general dismay toward the effectiveness of tai chi. Then someone will be very optimistic.
Generally there is 2 reasons why, maybe they are not very experienced in martial arts so they are overly impressed, or, They found someone
who is in fact on a very high level.

[marvin8]

So the point I was getting at is that in Chinese fighting arts, the power center of the human body is the dantien and the lower body, while the upper body -- especially the biceps and chest -- mostly act as conduits (the spine and the shoulder girdles, however, are more actively involved.) . . .

In the CMA training I've been exposed to, dantien and kua are the two main areas of focus, and ones that requires the most hard work to develop. More specifically, we train to engage the dantien and open/close the kua to produce power. . . .

As for the built of modern fighters, I NEVER meant to argue that they had huge muscles like bodybuilders. The point is that they are more "top heavy" -- which obviously means they train and rely on upper body for power more than lower body.

As for those chests and biceps, not sure about you, but they do look quite muscular to me. Also note how their lower bodies appear smaller in proportion to the upper bodies.

Sure, genes play a role in the size of a person's lower body, but IMO, the proportion of one's body also directly reflects how they train over the long term.

You may have a misunderstanding of western views on generating power. It may be more similar (not exactly) to eastern thoughts, than you think. I have never heard a knowledgeable westerner say power is generated by arm punching with the use of bulky chest or bicep muscles.

Terms pertaining to generating power in boxing, include sitting down on your punches, hip rotation, weight transfer, kinetic linking (National Geographic, “a perfect flow of energy through the entire body”), relaxation, snapping your punches at the end, etc.

Training can include, core training, plyometrics, hip flexibility, etc. Western fighters lift weights for functional strength, not for aesthetics as bodybuilders do.

Here is a boxing trainer showing an exercise how to fold your hips, hip flexibility, weight transfer, balance, etc.

Published on Dec 11, 2012
Training at Johnny Tocco's Boxing Gym inder Luis Monda and John Roberts. Advanced version of the Tile Exercise, adding in punches to the back and forth movement, mainly generating from the back foot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogN3KnGqnRE

Published on Mar 9, 2013
Corrections and additions to the original Tile Exercise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRgwNh2GNbU

Many say Gennady Golovkin (36 wins, 33 by knockout, 0 losses) is the hardest puncher in boxing, today. Notice no bulky arms or chest.

Published on Apr 14, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSgJIuMiMDk

[Steve James]

Many say Gennady Golovkin (36 wins, 33 by knockout, 0 losses) is the hardest puncher in boxing, today. Notice no bulky arms or chest.

I don't know that "Triple G" is considered the hardest puncher in the sport, but many consider him the best fighter pound for pound, and there's no one in his division who hits harder. In addition to his tremendous skill, he's a brawler who can just stand and take it. Everybody wants to see him fight Canelo. That'll be a goodie. Anyway, sorry for the tangent. The last "ripped" boxer I remember was Ken Norton, and he compared to Ali and other boxers of the time.

[Patrick]

[marvin8]

Phil Heath, Mr Olympia 2016. Primarily muscle isolation, hypertrophy (high reps) weight lifting. Bulky arms and chest:



The boxing Tile exercise videos reminded me (not exactly) of this Wee Kee Jin (Huang Sheng-Shyan line) video, @ 3:49 to 4:50, "You soften the hips . . ."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4dTHI8zgnA&t=3m49s

[bartekb]

There aren't any pictures of the old masters of IMA

here you go - I chose the ones that were known for fighting skills




generally its easy to check - if your body fat is above 25% you are just obese, it has nothing to do with martial arts, you just carry an excessive fat putting strain on your joints heart and generally your body
its possible to be obese and generally fit but its really hard or almost impossible to get there whilst obese - qouldnt mix any qi into it

[wkfung108]

Exactly. I was trying to be tactful about it, but if you're a highly skilled practitioner of an internal martial arts and you've <cough> built a shed over your tool, so to speak, that's not a "Tai Chi belly," and it didn't result because of your internal martial-arts training.

You're just eating too much and/or not moving enough. (Possibly there's some congenital endocrine disorder, but I think that kind of thing is quite rare.)

[bartekb]

You're just eating too much and/or not moving enough.

unfortunatelly Ive read a research recently that sitting lifestyle can mess up (amongs a plaethora of other things) your hormonal system making it harder to lose weight

[zrm]

The last "ripped" boxer I remember was Ken Norton, and he compared to Ali and other boxers of the time.

That reminded me of an interview I watched with Angelo Dundee (Ali's trainer) (skip to 49 minutes)



Dundee was against weight training and preferred his boxers to do body weight exercises. He also makes the point that some people are just naturally muscular and look like they use weights but don't.

[Steve James]

That last video brought back so many memories Willie Pep was a trip.

[DeusTrismegistus]

The reason why modern western fighters have large arms and chests has more to do with their supplementary weight training than with their martial arts practice. Everyone in America has learned to lift weights and be fit based on bodybuilder pioneered training methods and exercises. Even functional movement and the resurgence of bodyweight, kettlebells, indian clubs and other exercise methods is pretty recent and still not very widespread. So almost everyone who fights lifts like a bodybuilder too, even if they also do functional movements and compound lifts that isn't all of their training.

The chinese have a saying of Tiger Waist and Bear Back, which I take means someone with a muscular waist and wide powerful back. Most amateur lifters and athletes neglect the back development and focus on chest and arms because of the visual impact, whether to pick up the ladies or intimidate other guys. GSP is actually a good example of a more classical physique by western standards and is more similar to the greek and roman ideal. Which also fits the chinese description. He has a thick powerful waist, there is almost no taper from his chest down to his hips. His legs are very large for his size, especially when viewed from the side. He has powerful glutes. The chest is muscular but not large, the shoulders are large and well developed, while the arms are developed but not overly so. His back is very strong which can be seen when he fights. He is more lean than a historical ideal but they didn't have weight classes which reward people for cutting weight.

I think anyone who fights and doesn't lift weights would generally come to a similar build with differences coming from genetics and diet. The reason why is if you are any good at all you are using your legs , hips, waist, and back more than your arms and chest. Most westerners are already conditioned by the popularity of the bodybuilding physique popularized by magazines, tv, and movies so that is what people try to emulate, and when they fight those are the muscles they try to use since they are the strongest. So the amateur truly does use the arms and chest and not the legs, hips, waist, and back.

It should also be remembered that genetics plays a huge role on what your physique can develop to. Some guys can't get big no matter what. Its no coincidence that the muscles most people focus on are also the ones that tend to respond the best to hypertrophy training. The difference between western MA ideal physique and chinese MA ideal physique may actually be a difference between Chinese Genetics and European genetics.