The ideal physique: East vs. West

[RobP3]

Lennie....

[windwalker]

“Look at this Xinyiluhe guy demonstrating dantien movements while explaining how they power and drive the limbs. Notice the absence of six-pack abs and muscular arms. He, in my opinion, is using and training the body following the ancient Chinese ideal and method. “

A little surprised that most here would not have gotten your main point earlier. I felt it would be rather obvious considering the differences in thought and approaches between CMA and boxing arts developed in the west.

Bodywork, has also mentioned the differences in muscular development and type compared to those he’s worked with.

The standing, circle walking, and many other exercises are developed around a set of core ideas that start out from a different idea and understanding of how the body works. Why would one not expect the development to be different.

“During the Tianjian era [502–519 AD] of the reign of Emperor Wu of the Liang Dynasty, the Buddhist monk Damo traveled south [east] to the Shaolin Temple at Mt. Song, where he faced a wall [in meditation] for nine years until realizing the art of strengthening the body as a means to quieting the spirit. He wrote the two classics of Sinew Changing and Marrow Washing, as well as creating the “eighteen hand techniques”. https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... li-xianwu/

As RobP3 says of systima, many things may look the same but the art itself works from a different set of ideas. So too with IMA and CMA in gen..it starts out from a very different premise of how the body works. In so doing the way the body develops should be different along with the different types of energy/power it develops.

When learning standing methods, the most important thing to avoid is that your body or mind put forth any exertion. If you use exertion, energy will stagnate. If energy stagnates, intention will stop. If intention stops, spirit will be cut off. If spirit is cut off, you will become prey to your opponent’s tricks. You should especially avoid tilting your head back, bending at the waist, or overly bending or straightening your elbows and knees. Always use the measure of “straight but not straight, bent but not bent” and the mindset of opening up the sinews and vessels. https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... of-yiquan/

One can not approach CMA and not be aware of the differences in thought and function based on a very
different view of how things work in the body./mind.

[Yeung]

Galeb son of Jephunneh (1490 BC) claimed that at 85 he was still as strong as he was at 40, and as vigorous to go to battle as then (Joshua 14:10-12).

[C.J.W.]

As a related topic to the thread I started on running, I'd like to focus on the differences between traditional Chinese and Western classical cultutes

Frankly, I find the content of your last couple of posts to rather rascist, and as such, quite primitive. Westerners and Easterners bla bla bla. Western science is only beginning to understand what the East has known for ever, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not offended, speak how like. I just find it lacking in any sort of nuance, and does not stand up to close scrutiny. Debating the merits of various ideas is more fruitful than talking about which culture gets to take credit for their origins. IMO

Comparing and contrasting is.....racist? The internet never ceases to amaze me.

And I certainly find it baffling that, as a long-time CIMA practitioner with two decades of experience who's spent time in Taiwan (read your bio), you'd arrive at that conclusion after reading what I've written.

If you think my intention was to prove the Chinese knew and had it all, you've really missed the large proverbial boat.

But I guess people only see what they want to see...

[daniel pfister]

Yes, using the r-word was a bit harsh of me. I don't know exactly what your intentions are, but they don't seem to be malicious. That wasn't my point.

What I read in your posts is cherry-picking data to fit the Western and Eastern the stereotypes that you want to compare and contrast. I don't see how perpetuating those categories of people, rather than the various martial arts they've developed, is useful in improving IMA practice.

[wiesiek]

..'" wide hips, thin arms, and an unmuscular chest. ..."
Hmm, well,
forgive me, but it sounds like CGC /Chinese Ghey Club/,
I`m with Fubo post - if you train hard with the resistance body will definitely change, but not described above way. From the another hand I heard, that eunuchs in China were quite versed in TCMA.
Movin` the DT is one thing,/important but just one/, wonder how long and how often guy from C.J.W. posted vid. spars...
Anyway, as I recall master Ip breaking pile of bricks photo - he was thin, but muscular .
Using internal training as the medicine is quite different beast, dough.

[kenneth fish]

Not a lot of big abdomens in these pictures:

[Bao]

Do Real Roman and Greek warriors have big muscles and six-pack abs like in the movie?

http://history.stackexchange.com/questi ... he-m/16636

Yes and No. They did not have six-packs. They were endurance-builders, not body-builders. As a result, they were quite muscular, but they also had a good chunk of fat too. The reason they had this extra fat was because it could protect a little better.

Romans knew that being overweight was unhealthy. In battle, the extra fat could help prevent major bleeding when being injured, but having too much fat could slow them down.

The reason Gladiators gained an extra bit of "flab" was because Gladiators had high-calorie diets. Mainly consisting of foods with lots of protein and calcium, even some vile brews of charred wood or bone ash[1] because it is rich in calcium. Their diet also contained a lot of grains.

Another advantage of having the extra layer of fat for Gladiators was that they could take an injury and make it look bloody and fatal, while in fact it is hitting the fat, so it is not damaging any vital organs.

A cemetery was found that contained 70 roman gladiators.
Scientists have have concluded that their diet had been mostly barley, beans, dried fruit, and were probably extremely strong but fat.[2]

It is also true that many ancient Roman statues depicted six-pack abs, and it is also true that it was definitely considered attractive. A lot of these times they only portrayed the Roman soldier in the best light. During that time, if someone paid you to do a sculpture of them-self, then why would he want that extra bit of fat when he could have a six-pack!

[dspyrido]

What I had in mind was that the ancient Chinese regarded dantien as the power source of the body, and that traditional CMA training has always focused on its development as well as the kua, waist, and hips. The result is that the lower body and trunk become thick, which often appear soft and flabby by our modern Western standards.

Isn't this the reason why some were portrayed as flabby? They were affluent.



As has been posted there were many poorer cma guys who if you superimposed there bodies, heads, clothes & posture of an ancient or medieval european (westerner) you would struggle to tell the difference. Vice versa.

Flab on the waist is far more a product of diet, lifestyle & genetics vs excercise.

[Steve James]

The ancient Greeks were fairly obsessed with athletic games. When they pictured their athletes, they idealized their physiques. And they imagined that their gods would have similar figures. This is Zeus (or Poseidon).


Did all Greek athletes have that type of physique? Clearly, athletes had athletic bodies because of what they did. Throwing javelins or putting shot or boxing probably had similar effects on all those who participated, but that doesn't mean all their bodies were ideal. The Romans copied Greek ideals, and gods. The Roman athletes, however, were gladiators. Whether they all had six-packs would be beside the point for them.


While it's true that Chinese culture didn't have the same ideal of a ripped physique, that doesn't mean that Chinese athletes wouldn't develop them. But, again, we're comparing ideals with actuals. We have photos of Chinese martial artists who have various physiques. We can only go by representations of martial artists and athletes from 600 years ago.

I do agree, however, that western training methods have greatly influenced athletics worldwide. I think that's due to international competition. Btw, I don't agree that running for fitness is a western thing. I think that the best runners in the world come from places where they have to run daily. If there were runners (or even riders) in ancient China, I'd bet they had runners' physiques.

However, I also think that nutrition plays a key role. Everyone has a six pack; they're just covered by flesh and fat. Otoh, if one doesn't have enough protein (animal or vegetable) to build muscle, there won't be much muscle building, regardless of the amount of work.

[yeniseri]

Ideal rarely reflect the reality of the 'common physique but my viewpoint is one of sample size!
Can we say that the common citizens reflects the same as CMA type in physique having to do with martial, musclar or other physical attribute.
Can we say the same for the Scholars, or the government/exam takers of the day?

I was looking at some of the old American bandstand and Soul Train dancers (sample size) of the day and body fat distribution and waist/ hip ration appeared higher today then back then just through the eyeball test! As a stretch, the ideal physique only deals with those who have developed their profile (musculoskeletal, martial, gymnastic (as in fitness skill of some sort as opposed to the tumbling etc)

[Overlord]

[johnwang]

a typical Chinese warrior or martial artist depicted in ancient boxing manuals almost always have a

- potbelly,
- wide hips,
- thin arms, and
- unmuscular chest.

Both my teacher and I are not qualified as Chinese warrior by your definition.





With thin arms, you won't be able to do this.

[RobP3]

Thing is - there are ideas about how the body works....and there is the way the body actually works. There is an aesthetic ideal for body shape....and there is the actual body shape of people at the sharp end. There are stories of people killing giants or sitting motionless in a cave for years and years....and there are methods and procedures that people have used to develop skills.

How you wish to train is totally up to you

[Rabbit]

Surly a study of respective diets would be a better place to start?