What do you do? Can you show me?

[windwalker]

We seem to have some very similar experiences

A long while back some guys were watching me work with a friend of mine another taiji teacher.

They came over and asked what we were doing,
we had seen these guys practicing what they said was sambo.
Most of the time for people who stop by and ask questions, I'll just say its yoga or whatever not wanting to draw attention to what we are doing.

My friend suddenly said, “ this is taiji push hands want to try it with him” meaning me .
I looked at my friend thinking “dumbass ” the sambo guy which is what they called it,
tried something and I easily threw him out. Just being friendly.

The 2nd time he tried to take out my knee, which he did catch,
I still threw him out but this time I was injured but could not show it, not wanting them to know anything about it.

The 3d time I threw him out in such a way that it let him know what could be if he wanted more .
My friend stepped in and said we had to go….
They thought it was very cool, and thanked us as they left.

It was good experience, but I was worried that i had torn something in my knee.
The next day very hard to walk lucky for me it cleared up over time.

[dspyrido]

“After sparring/grappling whatever the MMA or other opponent looks at you and says - something about the way you spar/grapple is different to others ... "Please explain?"”

I dont really understand this, no teacher that I know of would try to do something that they did not already do. In other words,
they would say try "what ever" and see what happens. There would be no trade off.

In the Army, I used to know and meet a lot of people many who boxed. When I tried to box with them, it didnt work out so well for me.
I was not boxer never trained to box...When I used long arm telling them I would not kick them...it never worked for them....style wise they had no answer for it...those who practice long arm styles might understand my meaning.

Open rules sparring means its easy to do "whatever". No need to kill each other but many different fighting methods can be tested.

An example - in a sparring situation with a very large (130kg+), all muscle guy who has very heavy hits & lot of muscle to grapple with. The sparring is open mma rules with 4oz gloves. No punches or kicks are being thrown to the head but the body is being hit reasonably hard. The sparring goes to in/clinch fighting.

The opponent is trying throws, upper-cuts and light knees. His hands dont seem to get a good enough grip but he keeps getting hit & feels off-balanced. The hits are short, fast & there is not much pull back. Yet they somehow seem to be stinging him.

Afterwards the question is raised "How did you do it?" After a short explantion it leads to "What is it? how does it work? Can you show me?"

Other examples have happened with different sparring partners.

These examples made me think these are the benefits and the distinction that ima provides. At the very least they should be able to help lift the mystery veil of anectodal ima stories & also test skill levels. They also can help explain the distinction between applied methods that are more "internal" vs "external" both of which exist in all training.

[AJG]

You can show people everything they want to see. It's not going to be helpful if they don't invest a sufficient amount of time to embed some of the concepts.

[Bao]

What is it that IMA can do that is not found (or rare perhaps) in other systems? Then if prodded further you can proceed to explain it with any related principles.

A quick review of the posts & I can see some great examples:
- push hands - being song, listening skills and using the foundation to deflect & counter someone pushing & shoving (several posters on this)
- short power & impact (thanks Maarten)
- wrestling - defending only or other done using the principles sounds IMA to me but others might not agree (thanks JW)
- speed testing? could be argued is not exclusive IMA but I can see why being song makes a big difference
- striking the arm - if done in a relaxed fashion & the mind clearing the pain seems to be an great IMA trait vs. forcing and clenching EMA style (again thanks JW)

There is always a question of the grey area between the IMA & EMA but good ideas that can clarify the utility of IMA. Keep em coming.

I would say that there are a few things depending on practitioners, like using a relaxed arm like a wet cloth or be completely solid from the root all through the body up to the fingertips. External arts usually don't use structure quite in the same ways. But I would think that's really the package, a numerous of things together that give IMA arts certain characters. There can also be a strong psychological element to all of TCMA. Going against some arts can feel quite intimidating for various reasons. For going against good IMA practitioners, there's often a feeling of losing control and/or being dumbfounded. Some bagua stylists play around effortlessly. Against Tai chi dudes, you can feel that you become extrenely clumsy, that you have no control over your balance or your movements.

[.Q.]

The guy watched me train, due to the location when I arrived it was mostly just me and the teacher.
The guy asked the teacher if he could spar with me...My teacher looked at me and said “ knock him out, real kung fu way”
I smiled and said ok…

This set the tone. The guy had a kickboxing style. I had stopped using the lama hop gar awhile back in switching to the n-mantis style. Very different approach in many aspects. Much to my surprise every time the guy threw a punch or kick, my reactions were in 3 to 5 movements wtf .

Could you explain what you mean by your reactions in 3 to 5 movements? You mean you were trying to counter 1 move w/ 3 to 5 moves?

[windwalker]

Could you explain what you mean by your reactions in 3 to 5 movements? You mean you were trying to counter 1 move w/ 3 to 5 moves?

It was not me trying to counter

“it” was doing it for me.
Much to my surprise

Kinda funny when I think about it now,
not so funny then

Many mantis styles train to move in what are called “beats”
series of movements linked together typically in odd numbers. 3, 5. Ect.
For those interested in the style, Mr Lee, was one of my teachers students
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGQkneRSftQ

not our school but reflects how we trained and moved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA5-Q6wALTg


Much like boxing combos, while effective it can also be a trap.
This was a very long time ago...
A good lesson for me.

When I left Korea, going to HI, going into myself I felt the answer might lie in my old style, lama hop gar,
Something that I was very familiar with and had used it against many people. I found a local gym teaching hop gar,
in Honolulu and started training again.

I remember during the training I suddenly understood that I didn't need more movement, I needed to understand the "essence"
of movement.

For me "taiji" was the path that helped me to understand this.

I happened to find a couple of very unique teachers
Master Sam Kekina, who taught what was called "outlaw taiji " at the time.
and Sifu, Peter Tam Hoy, his assistant
http://taijihawaii.com/index.html

both quite skilled with very unique
and open minds.

I remember asking one of the students if this stuff really worked.
he laughed and bounced me off the wall....good stuff

At one time I thought it would be something that I could combine with my old mantis ie "fixing it"
After understanding and gaining some small skill in taiji I would find it to be the antithesis of it,

Understanding this I dropped everything else.

That was the start of my "journey to emptiness"

[.Q.]

Thanks for the explanation. I assume the opponent moved in a way that was not predicted by the combos and rendered them ineffective.