What do you do? Can you show me?

[middleway]

There's nothing to teach. I would just spar them within several separate contexts, like standing grappling only, defending only, just attacking and him trying to stop me, take down defense, trying to take him down, etc. Ask him how it felt after each one and explore differences and similarities with any martial arts they are familiar with, and how the training concepts and principles develop the skills, along with any unique qualities there may be in it.

Perfect. This is the way I would handle it as well. Spot on.

Thanks

[windwalker]

There's nothing to teach. I would just spar them within several separate contexts, like standing grappling only, defending only, just attacking and him trying to stop me, take down defense, trying to take him down, etc. Ask him how it felt after each one and explore differences and similarities with any martial arts they are familiar with, and how the training concepts and principles develop the skills, along with any unique qualities there may be in it.

Perfect. This is the way I would handle it as well. Spot on.

Thanks

what happens if they show you instead of you showing them, do you then learn from them?

[johnwang]

What would you show?

When you just meet a stranger, you don't want to hurt him. You also don't want him to hurt you. So what kind of showing will be proper?

I had tried the following in the past:

1. I'll play defense only and and let him to throw 20 punches at me and see if his punch can land on me.
2. I'll play defense only and let him to take me down within 3 minutes round.
3. Let him put on a SC jacket. I the grab on him and let him try to break my grip with 5 tries. I then put SC jacket on myself and let him grabs on me and I'll try to break his grip 5 times.
4. I'll get him into a head lock and let him try to get out of it within 1 minute. I then reverse the situation and I try to get out of his head lock.

The nice thing about this kind of show is it's safe and it can truly show some of your abilities such as:

1. defense ability for punch.
2. defense ability for take down.
3. offense ability for grip strength and ability to break grip.
4. offense ability for head lock strength and ability to get out of it.

For 1 and 2, you only play defense and you let your opponent to play offense, even if he is a stranger, there won't be any hard feeling involved. For 3 and 4, since you and your opponent will switch position, it's easy to convince him that you have some ability that he doesn't have yet.

[BruceP]

what happens if they show you instead of you showing them, do you then learn from them?

Yes. That's almost always been my experience while working through the exercises I outlined. Being neutral and open shows them everything.

What I can show is meaningless to someone else. To hell with what I can do. I've always been more interested in what others are able to do with the material.

[windwalker]

The premise of showing some one that is skilled something that they want to know about has many outcomes and meanings. If one is not clear one can end up in something very unexpected….Many teachers for this reason are very suspect about people asking to test them, more so in this day and age of smart phones and Utube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgp0COR-P1A

a good clip showing a teacher demoing his skill set with someone he doesn't know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5HDZ_b ... e=youtu.be

As seen in the first video, a few outsiders came to “Observe”. They are not paid members of the class. They only came to observe and check the workshop out. In this area in China, this behavior is locally accepted, the excuse being that if they did not see for themselves how good the instruction was, they would not be able to decide whether to join or not. If this is not allowed, then the local taiji community will see the event and instructors very negatively. Rumors will start.

These people will normally watch a bit and then either issue a challenge or just leave. In this case, the head person decided to issue a challenge. A challenge is not formal like in the movies.

The challenger will simply give a high praise to a move and ask the instructor to try it on him. This is highly unfair as the instructor has shown his move and the move is for showing the application of a move in the form. He is in this case, expected to demonstrate that move on the uncooperative challenger. He cannot use a different move, however. It would be considered cheating. So again it is very difficult for the instructor to respond but he cannot refuse. http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/

During the first Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method intramural competition in Nov. 2014 on Daqingshan, two people from Linyi came to challenge. They were not taiji people but have been devoted martial artists all their lives. Li Xiaohui of Daqingshan took the challenge. After the first person was done, the second person seen in the video in the background next to the pillar, claimed injuries in his leg and backed out. They both stayed overnight on Daqingshan and after the challenge they are now both starting Practical Method.

The best outcome of" What do you do? Can you show me?"

The challenger will simply give a high praise to a move and ask the instructor to try it on him.

Something that always makes me smile when people comment on my own skill set.

What happens to many teachers is that they forget or don't notice and still feel they'er in demo
mode when really they'er not

For those doing the testing, more so with teachers who come from areas where this is common, they should know
that often the teachers will treat them the same way as they did to those in "China" for example....My taiji bother when showing his skill sets
treated all visitors in this way, which I though was unfair....to the visitors....Its like playing with a tiger thinking its just a cat...

It was kind of funny, people would talk of wanting to test him,
he would just smile and talk about some guy wants to come and challenge him.
Clash of cultures

[MaartenSFS]

What would you show?

When you just meet a stranger, you don't want to hurt him. You also don't want him to hurt you. So what kind of showing will be proper?

I had tried the following in the past:

1. I'll play defense only and and let him to throw 20 punches at me and see if his punch can land on me.
2. I'll play defense only and let him to take me down within 3 minutes round.
3. Let him put on a SC jacket. I the grab on him and let him try to break my grip with 5 tries. I then put SC jacket on myself and let him grabs on me and I'll try to break his grip 5 times.
4. I'll get him into a head lock and let him try to get out of it within 1 minute. I then reverse the situation and I try to get out of his head lock.

The nice thing about this kind of show is it's safe and it can truly show some of your abilities such as:

1. defense ability for punch.
2. defense ability for take down.
3. offense ability for grip strength and ability to break grip.
4. offense ability for head lock strength and ability to get out of it.

For 1 and 2, you only play defense and you let your opponent to play offense, even if he is a stranger, there won't be any hard feeling involved. For 3 and 4, since you and your opponent will switch position, it's easy to convince him that you have some ability that he doesn't have yet.

I really like that. I may do something similar, for my skill set.

This year, when I was considering to study from a Tanglangquan master, I said that I wanted to "experience" what he had to offer and offered to let him attack me and I just defend. He agreed. It was a really good way to "challenge" without anyone getting hurt or losing face, etc.

[johnwang]

without anyone getting hurt or losing face, etc.

When preying mantis master Brendan Lai tried to test my speed,

- We both stood with right leg forward with hands down next to our knees.
- He tried to use his right leading hand to touch my back left shoulder.
- I tried to use my right leading arm to block his arm.

IMO, this can be a very "fun" game.

[middleway]

what happens if they show you instead of you showing them, do you then learn from them?

Yes absolutely I would enquire how they were doing what they did!! Why on earth wouldn't you! If it fits my goals i would ask them if they would teach me further. If it didn't fit my goals I would go have some tea with them and chat further.

I guess that's the benefit of having no tradition to maintain, no lineage to uphold, no care for the name ... Freedom.

[origami_itto]

what happens if they show you instead of you showing them, do you then learn from them?

Yes absolutely I would enquire how they were doing what they did!! Why on earth wouldn't you! If it fits my goals i would ask them if they would teach me further. If it didn't fit my goals I would go have some tea with them and chat further.

I guess that's the benefit of having no tradition to maintain, no lineage to uphold, no care for the name ... Freedom.

It's why I prefer sparring to competition

[Bao]

If someone asks you about a type of food that they have never tried before, the worst thing you can do is treat them as a beginner, and start explaining how the ingredients work and how to begin cooking it.

Flavor is a very abstract thing. It's better to explain by ingredients and how they are used. The difference of course is that you can easily show the flavor of a martial art. You don't need to cook anything first.

They arent interested in that. What they really want is to taste the final product first...

That is exactly what any first time student would want. If you can't show the flavor and what expect them if they continue to study, no student will stay. I usually show my first time students some leading and guiding, and letting them feel how structure and balance works. I would prefer letting someone who is interested in tai chi feel how to do something the "tai chi way" by himself instead of trying to show of. That is what I meant by treating any interested as a beginner student. If someone expect me to show off I wouldn't show anything.

It is a face to face scenario involving a skilled open minded person (training partners even) who have little faith in cma (reasons should be obvious) so they stopped any exploration of them. They also have next to zero awareness of ima.

My point is that if they have no awareness of, or faith in, IMA, trying to show off or let him challenge you is a bad idea. There are many reasons for this but first and foremost, IMHO, you should never risk a friendly meeting to become a matter of ego. It's better to show someone how it feels to do something else than owerpowering or use strength only, and instead letting him try to do something using leverage, following and adapting etc.

without anyone getting hurt or losing face, etc.

When preying mantis master Brendan Lai tried to test my speed,

- We both stood with right leg forward with hands down next to our knees.
- He tried to use his right leading hand to touch my back left shoulder.
- I tried to use my right leading arm to block his arm.

IMO, this can be a very "fun" game.

That's a very nice way showing skill or a skill set. I liked that example.

I've understood that Brendan was extremely fast. I bet that game would have been a real challenge against him.

[windwalker]

Yes absolutely I would enquire how they were doing what they did!! Why on earth wouldn't you! If it fits my goals i would ask them if they would teach me further. If it didn't fit my goals I would go have some tea with them and chat further.

I guess that's the benefit of having no tradition to maintain, no lineage to uphold, no care for the name ... Freedom.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"

You might try reading Freedom From the Known http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamur ... chid=56784

There are a couple of ways of looking at this.
Are you testing yourself
Are you testing your knowledge or expertis at something
Are you testing your knowledge or expertis at a chosen field of study that
You claim to, or feel that you represent.


For example I knew and trained under Brendan Lai.. He taught 7-star mantis among other things. He would never that I know of use something outside of his art to “win” If he found that something was lacking he would go back, examin it and come up with an answer from within his art.
Was he “free” I would say so having mastered the art he practiced.
There was no distinction between him and his art.

With what is called IMA, often there is a disparity between what some feel is the level of their practice and understanding
vs those they chose to interact with. It does not get better by adopting the method or way that one was defeated by.

There is a saying “that he does not go out the door for ten years” meaning that one should really understand
and master whatever it is that they do before going out and testing it.

Many don’t. They don’t to the extent that things like ph have lost their value as a way of training, now turned into a way of competing which destroys a lot of the skill sets that one is trying to develop.

In reading the posts on the thread, many of them would be and could be considered as challenges if one is talking about testing hands with a stranger.
Not something I would advise doing in some of the parks in China or other places….There are those there waiting for someone to come along so they too can test their art.

[windwalker]

Anywhere you teach is a CHANG. A challenge while you are teaching is called TI CHANG. In old times, if you lose the location became the challenger’s, including your own private school. Today, people are challenged for public locations in parks, etc.

So you can see that during a challenge fight, the defender has a lot at stake. So the fight is very REAL, although sometimes they talk, and laugh during the fight. Don’t be fooled!
http://practicalmethod.com/2015/02/about-challenges/

Indeed “ Don’t be fooled!”

"It's why I prefer sparring to competition"

"This year, when I was considering to study from a Tanglangquan master, I said that I wanted to "experience" what he had to offer and offered to let him attack me and I just defend. He agreed. It was a really good way to "challenge" without anyone getting hurt or losing face, etc."

In most traditional CMA styles “sparring” as thought of in western terms is a little different.
things are over very quickly and decisively.

All the teachers I’ve met also did the same, in that they wanted one to taste their art.
Again depending on setting would determine how much one was fed.

Would the food choke or nouris one….

Is the one there to really learn or is one there to test the teacher.
Both can make mistakes, thinking its one when actually it's the other.

Some teachers use people to feed their students,
the ones wanting to test things if not careful can often end up as a meal.

In Korea, meeting a teacher who taught “plum flower mantis”,,,
In asking about the style the first thing he asked was if I practiced CMA and would I like to feel his style with one of his students.
I said yes

Having practiced lama hop gar, and interacted with many I felt pretty confident.
We set up on a nearby basket ball court. The spacing was about 6 ft apart,,,
The mantis guy cleared the space in the blink of an eye before I could even move.

The speed and method was something I had never encountered before. Not finding the style I was looking for and noting that this was very different I decided to try this method for a little while.
Mantis for those looking for a very fast and practical style is something to look into.

Not really my cup of tea although it would take me some time to really understand this and the reasons why.

A small story.

My yrs back I joined the singapore chin woo, http://www.sgchinwoo.com/chin wu.
One of the teachers there let me teach some mantis sets in exchange he taught me a
spear set.

One of the students a local instructor at the chin woo, "hung gar" exponent...he asked me why I was really there
This during a small meal, some chit chat and drinking beer. It kind of caught me by surprise.

He stood up, I did too, he asked what would I do if he did "this"
He threw a punch as he was saying this which I unexpectedly caught in typical mantis style while also kicking his shin which I stopped. My reaction surprised him and me. We both laughed and sat down continuing with
the meal, he said “you have skill”

[johnwang]

I've understood that Brendan was extremely fast. I bet that game would have been a real challenge against him.

It depends on how you may block your opponent's punch. A punch always start from

static -> slow speed -> fast speed

If you block your opponent's punch that's close to

- his body, his punch has not generated full speed yet.
- your body, his punch may have reached to full speed already.

So the best way to block someone's punch is to block it as close to his body (as far away from your body) as possible. This is what I call "double spears" strategy (if you just use one arm that will be "single spear"). You don't block your opponent's punch. You rotate your arm in circle to protect the space in front of you.

[middleway]

Windwalker I don't think you quite grasped what I or Jose said.

To respond to someone with no interest in being part of a traditional model with talk of long term commitment to a traditional model doesn't make much sense...  You are not going to convert me to that way of thinking.

We inhabit totally different places and perspectives on the martial arts,  body methods and techniques of self development and how To approach them.  This has been evidenced across many conversations.

here is a saying “that he does not go out the door for ten years” meaning that one should really understand
and master whatever it is that they do before going out and testing it. 

Yes I have heard this many times...  All it tells me is that the method of training is flawed. 

reading the posts on the thread, many of them would be and could be considered as challenges if one is talking about testing hands with a stranger.
Not something I would advise doing in some of the parks in China or other places….There are those there waiting for someone to come along so they too can test their art.

I am not affraid of people in the parks in China.  If they perceive friendly free exchange such as that Jose and i outlined as a challenge match then they are not worth my time.  They could try to test their art...  It would be a shock for them no doubt. 

Every sentence shouts the confines of your outlook.

Thanks for the discussion though. 

Merry Christmas

[johnwang]

What would you show?

Sometime I just strike my arm against my opponent's arm with full power until he wants to stop. This server 2 purposes:

You can let your opponent to feel

- your power generation and body unification without hurting him.
- besides internal Qi, you have also trained your 筋骨皮 (muscle, bone, and skin) as well.