the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Hey everyone. I'v done a fair amount of research on this as of so far; on this forum and as much as I can find online. I asked my teacher what his thoughts were, and what he was taught. He said that both of his XYLH teachers never stressed breathing, other then saying breath from the stomach/Diaphragm. On the other hand, a good friend of mine who also teaches tells me that reverse breathing is key to internal movements. Without it, you wont get anything internal out of it and are basically practicing the art in an external way. My teacher just said keep it natural, relaxed, subtle, and use diaphragm breathing. Which makes sense. Though at the same time, what I read about reverse breathing also makes sense.

We use it when pushing heavy things (a car, for example). I've also read that it protects the organs when the stomach is pushed outward, and also allows for much stronger striking ability. On top of that, it also conditions and massages the organs. Which, also makes sense (some of it anyway). My teacher is more in the mind set of internal martial arts being about structure of the body, alignment, timing, breathing, etc. When it comes to the microcosmic orbit and really esoteric stuff, he basically says hog wash to that and that he never learned that. I'm posting this to see what the community here thinks, and how you guys learned. Do you use reverse breathing? If you do, why? Do you prefer diaphragm breathing?

Just wanting to get some more opinions. Thank!

Can your teacher apply his art in combat? Can he kick arse? If the answer is yes, I'd listen to him.

Breath is an essential part of the art. Reverse breathing is for developing the microcosmic orbit which connects the three tan tiens. The internal movements that generate power must be separated from the breath

When you reach for the salt at the dinner table do you breathe in or out?

KEND wrote:Breath is an essential part of the art. Reverse breathing is for developing the microcosmic orbit which connects the three tan tiens. The internal movements that generate power must be separated from the breath

This is only the second person I have ever heard talk about separating from the breath. Could you kindly elaborate a bit more on this.

The training of internal muscles [bypassing the autonomic nervous system] is separated from the breath, which tends to confuse and possibly damage the organs and muscles. There are arts that use the breath, for example a kiai in karate uses breath, expanding the chest and abdomen which is similar to Pao, exploding or expanding power. The activation of the microcosmic orbit, which involves breath and visualization, appears to interact with the nervous system so that intent or thought manifests itself as internal muscular action

Ultimately, breathing should be separated from the movement because if one is panting for breath, if one can not catch the breath, he is already dead. That is why some teachers teach to recite names of the movements during training (I was taught to recite Buddhist sutras during practice) - to separate brathing and movement.
Also, theory says there are five levels of working with force in every martial arts (or qigong): 1, 外 wai (external movement with limbs and big muscle groups), 2, 内 nei (internal movement, without external one), 3, 吸 xi (movement just by breathing, without external and internal movements), 4, 意 yi (movement caused just by intention, separated from breathing and muscle action), 5, 開合 kai-he (opening-closing, even without intention).
Small circle of Heaven (小周天 xiao zhou tian) should be manifested as internal movement (second level, internal movement of muscles) in the beginning and only after accomplishing circulation by force of muscular movements one should go to next levels (by breathing, by intention, by itself-going). First in the body, only then in the mind. Otherwise one will never get it.

There are 3 principles which govern all IMA: Regulation of the body; regulation of the mind, and regulation of the breath. They need to be UNITED - not separated. If anyone is left out then you have ceased to practice IMA.

All XYLH instructors I've known all said the same thing about breathing - keep it natrural and keep breathing. I was also initially surprised as there was no compression breathing or focus on anything on harmonizing with the movement. It was even more surprising because these instructors are also well versed in either tc, baqua, daoyin, various chigongs, neigong...

I asked the same question and the answer was when doing XYLH forms the body needs to breath because the movements are fast and vigorous. The body needs oxygen, it needs it fast and it needs to accommodate for changing positions & varying timing. The forms are not yin training & trying to compress the breath or doing anything that minimizes the oxygen when doing full speed moves is not sensible. But with training the forms & breath do harmonize naturally.

When doing yin training (standing postures) this is the time to consider compression breathing methods. But this training comes later in xylh and does not replace the initial physical training.

If you can separate, then you can also unite. If you can unite, that does not mean you can separate. And if you can separate, then you know that you do not need to unite.

I was gonna answer but then I noticed that what my teacher told me is exactly the same as dspyrido's answer. When we practice the movements at full speed as a form of martial art training, the body knows best how to harmonize the breathing and intentionally manipulating this process can lead to bad habits that may impede the body's natural movement or response. This is why most XYLH teachers intentionally delay the Neigong training.
I see a very similar problem in music education. Classical musicians start from learning a ton of technique and theory, however very few of them can improvise and even when you want to teach them to improvise you see that many of them just can't free themselves from all that theory and just have fun letting their soul sing. They might be able to play complicated pieces but music never becomes a natural language of their souls. This is not to say that technique and theory are not important but perhaps it is better to learn them later as a tool to refine what comes natural not to replace what is natural.

In my XYQ - natural breathing to the Dan Tian, continuous. You also 'breath into the sides of your ribs'. No special emphasis apart from that. All other emphasis is on the structure and Yi, which create proper breathing patterns for that art.

In my Jook Lum Southern Mantis - most commonly the same as above. Some exercises and drills have specific breathe patterns - there are a given number of movements to execute on each inhale and exhale, and sometimes you issue power between the breaths. The qigong form of the system, which is strictly medical (but strongly supports the system overall) utilizes reverse breathing, the microcosmic orbit and also aligns inhale and exhale with specific movements. Much of the breathe work I find is intended to raise lung capacity and allow you to operate with little oxygen.

I saw a guy talking about dragon and tiger chi gung on YouTube
He told his audience that each in or out breath could take 5 minuets
This from a guy who was having trouble coordinating his breathing with speaking
I would have loved to put him on the bottom of a pool to test it out

Miro wrote:If you can separate, then you can also unite. If you can unite, that does not mean you can separate. And if you can separate, then you know that you do not need to unite.

But there is nothing to learn, and no skill involved in separating movement from breath. That is the way we were born and naturally operate. IMA teaches one how to unite the breath with movement and intent.

Ron Panunto wrote:But there is nothing to learn, and no skill involved in separating movement from breath. That is the way we were born and naturally operate. IMA teaches one how to unite the breath with movement and intent.

Ron, we talked before so I know you are clever guy and serious practitioner, you have my respect. Therefore forgive me that I will answer by question: How do you know that there is nothing to learn, and no skill involved? Do not you think that if there are teachers teaching that way, there must be something in it?

Btw, do you consider jin a natural skill, something we naturally operate with (from the birth and also later)?