Bing or Peng 掤

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Yeung on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:32 am

The character 掤 (Bing) is commonly referred to as Peng (棚) in most literature. Bing is an ancient word, which means the cover of a quiver (holster) for arrows. If the quiver is made out of cane or rattan, and the cover is an extension from the trunk, then it is possible to be springy. It can spring open and remained open for the convenience of the archery. May be this is why ancient writers had chosen this word for springiness.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Subitai on Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:40 pm

Interesting...sorry i'm not character literate. Is that the same Character as in Peng, lu, gi, an?

I often teach Peng as the springy energy of a bow that is strung. Other times, as the buoyancy of a ball pushed down in water.
User avatar
Subitai
Huajing
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby middleway on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:04 pm

Chen yuan San uses the term bing instead of peng in his tai chi line. If I remember rightly he said it was the same type of power as the springy quiver cover opening and closing as an archer rode on horseback. But I could easily be misremembering.

Thanks
Last edited by middleway on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I am not servant to the method, the method is servant to me"
Me

My Blog: http://www.martialbody.com/Blog-Research
middleway
Wuji
 
Posts: 4674
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:25 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:05 pm

I think of peng as something that absorbs force like an inflatable stunt air bag rather than being springy or buoyant. I try to make contact with people by "catching" a bit of their force and then redirect it. I feel like when people's reactions are springy, they tend to be easier for me to control because I know that if I push on them a little I will get this returning force that I use to redirect and continuously manipulate. But that's just my POV.
Last edited by daniel pfister on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daniel pfister
Wuji
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Davis, CA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:07 pm

Ma Yueliang on Peng:

What is Peng Jin and is it better to maintain a little in the arms for example to prevent people from coming in?

People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship. Then he added in English: “Peng Jin is sensitivity”.


https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -peng-jin/

Chen Zhonghua:

Peng: Is it written 掤 or 棚?
by CSHUM00 on 2012/04/26
I hope someone who knows Chinese and/or TaiChiQuan literature help me on this one.

Peng is the first and one of the eight fundamental principles in TaiChiQuan. It is followed by lu (履), ji (擠), an (按), cai (採), lie (列), zhou (肘) and kao (靠). In some TaiChiQuan context, peng is translated as ward-off. In the practical method, it is identified as the structural expanding power.

All the introduction aside, my question is; it is written 掤 or 棚? I see in different websites written with either one of them. But when consulting to Chinese dictionaries, i find that it should be 棚 (with the wood radical) and not 掤 (with the hand radical). For it, the character 棚 uses “peng” as the character pronunciation and romanization. While 掤 uses “bing” instead for character pronunciation and romanization. They also mean different things. 棚 means shed. 掤 means a quiver or container for arrows


practicalmethod.com/2012/04/peng-is-it-written-掤-or-棚/

Both teachers agree with what character is used. How Ma describes the term resonates well with me: "But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move." One should offer no resistance, not offer the opponent to feel the structure. A very light and agile touch is necessary.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:09 pm

As an aside, I'm not disagreeing with the origins of the term peng or that anyone is using the term wrongly (yet). However, my usage of the term and my application of it as a technique has evolved over time.
daniel pfister
Wuji
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Davis, CA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:17 pm

Bao wrote: But when consulting to Chinese dictionaries, i find that it should be 棚 (with the wood radical) and not 掤 (with the hand radical). For it, the character 棚 uses “peng” as the character pronunciation and romanization. While 掤 uses “bing” instead for character pronunciation and romanization. They also mean different things. 棚 means shed. 掤 means a quiver or container for arrows



I would not look to Chinese dictionaries for the answer on this one. The definitions of words are supposed to come from how those words are and have been used. When people who use certain technical words most frequently (Tai Chi people) have differing understandings of them, what hope do dictionaries have?
Last edited by daniel pfister on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
daniel pfister
Wuji
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:59 pm
Location: Davis, CA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby everything on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:43 pm

more proof of the rorschach test nature of the art. no one agrees on even a fundamental word.

I went to a "class" today. The teacher teaches senior citizens. It is what it is, and that's fine to some extent. Much of it was great. Her footwork was not so great. Sigh. Oh well.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:48 pm

daniel pfister wrote:
Bao wrote: But when consulting to Chinese dictionaries, i find that it should be 棚 (with the wood radical) and not 掤 (with the hand radical). For it, the character 棚 uses “peng” as the character pronunciation and romanization. While 掤 uses “bing” instead for character pronunciation and romanization. They also mean different things. 棚 means shed. 掤 means a quiver or container for arrows


I would not look to Chinese dictionaries for the answer on this one.


You can tell Chen Zhonghua to stop using dictionaries then. ;)

The definitions of words are supposed to come from how those words are and have been used. When people who use certain technical words most frequently (Tai Chi people) have differing understandings of them, what hope do dictionaries have?


Tai Chi is surely developed more as a verbal transmission than a written one. Sure, names of concepts or terms are not important. We do physical practice, but still we name things to have something to refer to. When you teach, it's often faster to say a word instead of having to show something all of the time. A certain practical concept was called Peng and the name had a certain meaning so the association between name and practical concept should match as close as possible, so there should be no misunderstanding. If a word change, it might have to do with language problems or that someone might have misunderstood a certain concept. Regardless what, by tracing the language, we can trace the history of Tai Chi and where changes of teaching methods have been done. This knowledge of a history through language might have no impact on how you do your Peng. But for the person who wants to explore the different possibilities of a concept, or opportunities to explore the art of Tai Chi deeper, exploring language has it's benefits. At least, one can become more aware of the complex nature of the art and be more receptive to other people's practical interpretation of concepts. So IMHO, understanding the etymology of things has it's own value. :-\

daniel pfister wrote:As an aside, I'm not disagreeing with the origins of the term peng or that anyone is using the term wrongly (yet). However, my usage of the term and my application of it as a technique has evolved over time.


"Peng" as a character in itself is not a term, but a character that is used in two quite different ways. If you say "application of it as a technique" it sounds more like the posture "Peng" and not as the principle or pengjin. Peng is the posture and movement in the form, pengjin is not a technique of posture. Just wanted to know what Peng you referred to, posture or "Jin".
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:54 pm

everything wrote:no one agrees on even a fundamental word.


Why agree or disagree if you can not feel a teacher's hands? Do the word "Peng" have value if you have felt a skill first hand, something that you like and the teacher calls Peng? Then does it matter what it is that he calls Peng? :P
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Subitai on Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:43 pm

Bao wrote:Ma Yueliang on Peng:

What is Peng Jin and is it better to maintain a little in the arms for example to prevent people from coming in?

People misunderstand Peng. There is another word with the same sound and only one stroke different that means something like structure or framework and people often think this is what is meant by Peng. If you base your Taiji on this incorrect meaning of Peng then the whole of your Taiji will be incorrect. Peng Jin is over the whole body and it is used to measure the strength and direction of the partners force. But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move. It can be described like water which will, with no intention of its own, support equally the weight of a floating leaf or the weight of a floating ship. Then he added in English: “Peng Jin is sensitivity”.


https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... -peng-jin/

Chen Zhonghua:

Peng: Is it written 掤 or 棚?
by CSHUM00 on 2012/04/26
I hope someone who knows Chinese and/or TaiChiQuan literature help me on this one.

Peng is the first and one of the eight fundamental principles in TaiChiQuan. It is followed by lu (履), ji (擠), an (按), cai (採), lie (列), zhou (肘) and kao (靠). In some TaiChiQuan context, peng is translated as ward-off. In the practical method, it is identified as the structural expanding power.

All the introduction aside, my question is; it is written 掤 or 棚? I see in different websites written with either one of them. But when consulting to Chinese dictionaries, i find that it should be 棚 (with the wood radical) and not 掤 (with the hand radical). For it, the character 棚 uses “peng” as the character pronunciation and romanization. While 掤 uses “bing” instead for character pronunciation and romanization. They also mean different things. 棚 means shed. 掤 means a quiver or container for arrows


practicalmethod.com/2012/04/peng-is-it-written-掤-or-棚/

Both teachers agree with what character is used. How Ma describes the term resonates well with me: "But it is incorrect to offer any resistance. It should be so light that the weight of a feather will make it move." One should offer no resistance, not offer the opponent to feel the structure. A very light and agile touch is necessary.


I like your last paragraph and that's more closely to my view as well. I know it's been said by other people before...but I've been using the term "empty coat" in my own teaching / practice for almost 20yrs now.

I was taught of course you should have peng as part of your structure but also... to know your own Peng, is to feel where your opponent is strong. Then of course you can follow accordingly. However, you can also trap them by letting them feel where you are strong and then countering again.

If in Push hands we are taught to neither "Go against" or to "become disconnected" Bu Diu- Bu ding. This above concept makes sense. Which is why I tend to "follow" wherever my opponent wants to go and not fight it. Then when he is weak (best if I can Empty him) I issue jing.

Now that seems very obvious...but when you see allot of TC people, it almost seems contra to that. Meaning, they find where the opponent is strong and they EFFICIENTLY try to cut through them to make them weak or they find where the opponent is strong and then they try to bounce them away because of it. All the while not Visibly making yielding posture.

For example
, student pushes on teacher and the teacher says he's relaxed .... the teacher makes no VISIBLE yield ... yet the student feels as if he's bounced away. ( this is not an example of yield to emptiness btw :) )

* Now that skill in the example could be explained a few ways but one thing is certain, there was no attempt to yield the power into emptiness. Do you see how that is kinda contrary to what Ma is saying?

** Truly if there was no resistance...the push would be allowed to continue on it's course...thus emptied.

*** The very nature of making someone yield into emptiness (if you can do it right) puts them into a more readable position. Certainly, once there the opponent must make a change. Which again can be followed easily.

====================================
Alternatively....I don't study Chen style but I love to push vs them. I have a friend who studies New Frame Chen. He said, he was taught that Lu for them is like a "Wobble joint" in a Mechanics Sockets set. The energy comes to you and Lu is to make the opponent divert way from you...but YOU yourself do not yield backwards at all. I find this very interesting because it seems to explain why you see so many TC people interested in holding their ground (so to speak) with peng.

When I watch Chen Zhonghua, he holds his structure extremely well (of course) and he "attacks the attack" so to speak...of course very well. This is what I see him do the most in his demos. His Peng structure is so good...he can sense and break down his opponent. What he doesn't seem to do however is be Light as a feather.

Now, all this theory is good and dandy but I truly believe that it all needs to be a "forever" changing mode. Little bit of everything depending on how your opponent moves. Thus, I just follow.

====================================
WING CHUN

Not to get the WC people fired up. But I feel that allot of Modern Male dominated WC players have made the style very hard and forever pushing / PRESSING forward. In essence a springy PENG forward. Especially in Chi Sao.

If it really was designed for a woman...that should not be the way IMO. It should be relaxed and yielding (as it is often played by good WC people) But Never the aggressive pressure>> pressure>> pressure>> into your opponent that allot of modern guys use.

Tan, Bong, Fuk...I would just stick and follow but not press forward. Defend to expose an opening and then MOVE IN to take advantage. My opinions...
User avatar
Subitai
Huajing
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby everything on Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:16 pm

Bao wrote:
everything wrote:no one agrees on even a fundamental word.


Why agree or disagree if you can not feel a teacher's hands? Do the word "Peng" have value if you have felt a skill first hand, something that you like and the teacher calls Peng? Then does it matter what it is that he calls Peng? :P


Yes agree
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Yeung on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:36 am

Bing is the first technique in the 13 tendencies (十三势 shi san shi)for pushing hand duet , and it is also the first movement of Form 7 of the standard simplified Taijiquan, figures 56-59. Shen Jiazhen (沈家桢1891-1972) suggested that all [joints are lengthened and] moving to rotate the palm from facing inward to facing outward is Bing (Chapter 1, page 15).
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Yeung on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:45 am

Subitai wrote:Interesting...sorry i'm not character literate. Is that the same Character as in Peng, lu, gi, an?

I often teach Peng as the springy energy of a bow that is strung. Other times, as the buoyancy of a ball pushed down in water.


Good examples of passive energy or recoil, but Bing can also viewed as an active energy or movement.
Yeung
Wuji
 
Posts: 844
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Bing or Peng 掤

Postby Subitai on Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:28 pm

Yeung wrote:
Subitai wrote:Interesting...sorry i'm not character literate. Is that the same Character as in Peng, lu, gi, an?

I often teach Peng as the springy energy of a bow that is strung. Other times, as the buoyancy of a ball pushed down in water.


Bing is the first technique in the 13 tendencies (十三势 shi san shi)for pushing hand duet , and it is also the first movement of Form 7 of the standard simplified Taijiquan, figures 56-59. Shen Jiazhen (沈家桢1891-1972) suggested that all [joints are lengthened and] moving to rotate the palm from facing inward to facing outward is Bing (Chapter 1, page 15).

Good examples of passive energy or recoil, but Bing can also viewed as an active energy or movement.


If you're saying what I think you are...I agree, a couple of years ago I made a thread on "Split..lead and Follow".

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22264&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=split+lead+follow

In a Yang Forum I had a discussion with a guy about Elbow Splitting and Peng.
by Subitai » Tue Sep 16, 2014
In our school there are 3 main ways to split the elbow; up, down & horizontally.
Also it is critical before I go further to say that splitting the elbow works best when you attack the triceps tendon point above the actual elbow.

In the drill we are not using the UP...so the focus should be on the down and lateral versions.

Usually if you're going to split on the elbow..it's preceded with some sort of "cai" or pluck (to grab the wrist). Upon doing so, twisting the the wrist so that the thumb side turns down also causes the elbow the point up. This is done on purpose because it binds the opponent. When elbow is pointing up and you extend the arm to make his energy "LONG"...it facilitates the downward split.

As to why I use the backfist side of my arm and NOT the palm side...PENG. The forearm bones consist of the Radius and Ulna, when you use the back side like I did...you also twist the bones and peng provides energy from the Longer reach of your arm. So peng is not just from the Bow (roundness) of your arm and hollow (sink) of your chest, but also it exists in the spiral of your bones. Circles within circles.

**In our school the more you express your jing via connection out towards your fingers....the more advanced you are. Energy from the dan tien doesn't stop at the shoulder or elbow or wrist (unless you want it to), but all the way out to your fingers.

If you use your palm side, you also are doing what I said about twisting true, BUT you are not using the knife of the arm. The problem with this is that you present your muscle / meaty side of your under forearm on the joint. It is too soft for real fighting purposes. The ulna bone is like the knife or axe in splitting the elbow joint and is much more painful and effective.




Similar Observation:
If i'm standing in front of you with my arms at my sides (relaxed) then I lift my hand straight out as if to shake hands with you. Literally with thumb upwards = that is NOT twisting.

- But if I now turn my palm upwards (heaven palm) or to concentrate on spiraling the pinky finger forward and up...there is a Peng twist of the Ulna bone. It is that subtle energy that I can use very well in splitting.
Last edited by Subitai on Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Subitai
Huajing
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests