Bing or Peng 掤

[Finny]

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WING CHUN

Not to get the WC people fired up. But I feel that allot of Modern Male dominated WC players have made the style very hard and forever pushing / PRESSING forward. In essence a springy PENG forward. Especially in Chi Sao.

If it really was designed for a woman...that should not be the way IMO. It should be relaxed and yielding (as it is often played by good WC people) But Never the aggressive pressure>> pressure>> pressure>> into your opponent that allot of modern guys use.

Tan, Bong, Fuk...I would just stick and follow but not press forward. Defend to expose an opening and then MOVE IN to take advantage. My opinions...

Wing Chun as I was taught it.. was NOT designed for or by a woman - any more than Taiji was designed to be used by taoist sages floating on clouds (ie that's a farcical creation myth that served a purpose - much like ZSF with TJ)

My teacher's lineage was often vocal that other (HK) lines of (YM) WC are NOT 'pressing forward' enough in chi sao. According to my teacher that is an essential (basic) component of chi sao, in that it 'tests' the person's structure.

It was stressed to me that 'chasing hands' and 'playing the chi sao game' are not constructive uses of training time - we test the structure that way because, if there is an opening/weakness in it, we push forward through that and strike. Much emphasis was placed on driving through the bridge to strike, and that a sound structure was required to stop such an attack in response. Testing that structure while rolling in chi sao is just introductory, basic training.

[Martin2]

A bit about peng with explanations from Ma Yueliang and Ma Jiangbao:

http://taichi-philosophy.blogspot.de/20 ... power.html

enjoy

Martin

[Wuming]

Thanks Martin. Question about Wu style -- have you ever heard that it is better not to push off the ground?

Thanks

[origami_itto]

A bit about peng with explanations from Ma Yueliang and Ma Jiangbao:

http://taichi-philosophy.blogspot.de/20 ... power.html

enjoy

Martin

The description there is exactly the same as Cheng Man Ching's description of Ti Fang in 13 chapters.

[Martin2]

Hello wuming,

sorry, never heard off this.

All the best

Martin

[LaoDan]

I think of peng as something that absorbs force like an inflatable stunt air bag rather than being springy or buoyant. I try to make contact with people by "catching" a bit of their force and then redirect it. I feel like when people's reactions are springy, they tend to be easier for me to control because I know that if I push on them a little I will get this returning force that I use to redirect and continuously manipulate. But that's just my POV.

The springiness that you are taking advantage of is just because your opponent is not maintaining their central equilibrium when returning your force. The springiness should go in all directions, not just toward the incoming force. If the rebounding force goes forward, then there should also be a backward (and down, etc.) to balance the energy and maintain the center.

I view peng like the air that properly inflates a rubber ball. It is the energy that fills ones structure. The application peng would be the ability of the properly inflated rubber ball to rebound incoming force (lu would be the ability of the ball to rotate, if it has a properly filled structure).

The springy or buoyant peng is more the yang or attacking/repelling aspect, whereas the “air bag” analogy would correspond better to the yin or defending/receiving/sticking quality. I think that both are appropriate for TJQ [if done correctly].

[LaoDan]

If in Push hands we are taught to neither "Go against" or to "become disconnected" Bu Diu- Bu ding. This above concept makes sense. Which is why I tend to "follow" wherever my opponent wants to go and not fight it. Then when he is weak (best if I can Empty him) I issue jing.

Now that seems very obvious...but when you see allot of TC people, it almost seems contra to that. Meaning, they find where the opponent is strong and they EFFICIENTLY try to cut through them to make them weak or they find where the opponent is strong and then they try to bounce them away because of it. All the while not Visibly making yielding posture.

We should be able to take advantage of both excesses and deficiencies – strengths and weaknesses - in the opponent. I think that both approaches that you mention can be appropriate for TJQ. Often applications are some combination of the two.

I sometime view jijin and anjin (squeezing, and pushing/pressing, respectively) in this context. Ji would be taking advantage of deficiencies or weak structure (gaps, collapsing, attacking through their yin surfaces, etc.) while anjin attacks through their strengths (rigid structure, resistance, attacking through their yang surfaces, etc). It is similar to attacking a sphere by penetrating the defensive sphere (jijin – squeezing into or penetrating weak points) or through the surface structure of the sphere (anjin – pressing against the firmness, allowing control through the structure and into the spine/center). Or, jijin would take advantage of deficiencies (or depressions) and anjin would take advantage of excesses (or projections).

I realize that this is an unconventional way of viewing jijin and anjin, but it may be useful to some practitioners.

[daniel pfister]

A bit about peng with explanations from Ma Yueliang and Ma Jiangbao:

http://taichi-philosophy.blogspot.de/20 ... power.html

Yes, this is what I was talking about. It's not different definitions but different levels, or phases as Ma says. Phase one is a good beginning but always depends upon getting the right amount of force from the opponent to unbalance them. Phase two is more active, allowing you to control the opponent at will rather than always having to wait for them to try to push you.

The problem I have with the air-filled ball floating on the water analogy is that it sounds like very predictable energy to me. I get why we need to teach yielding and passivity in the beginning, but at some point people need to acquire greater skill. I believe the saying goes, "at first it is giving oneself up to follow others, then gradually you can do as you like."

[Bao]

. I get why we need to teach yielding and passivity in the beginning, but at some point people need to acquire greater skill. I believe the saying goes, "at first it is giving oneself up to following others, then gradually you can do as you like."

The problem is that people usually don't practice that first stage of yielding and passivity, but instead calls it peng when they use solid structure and resistance. So they'll never reach the stage where it's possible to even start to develop the real tai chi skill that is peng.

[daniel pfister]

The problem is that people usually don't practice that first stage of yielding and passivity, but instead calls it peng when they use solid structure and resistance. So they'll never reach the stage where it's possible to even start to develop the real tai chi skill that is peng.

Those people just won't be any good yet. No biggie. I see a greater problem with many so called advanced practitioners who will not get beyond that difficult first stage because they dogmatically believe it is the end all be all of TJQ push hands and pengjin.

[Yeung]

It is interesting to see the difference between those issue force with brute force or concentric muscle contraction, and those using eccentric muscle contraction. It is equally interesting to see those claiming the use of yielding and passivity as there might be a lack of power to retaliate.

[Wuyizidi]

The character 掤 (Bing) is commonly referred to as Peng (棚) in most literature. Bing is an ancient word, which means the cover of a quiver (holster) for arrows. If the quiver is made out of cane or rattan, and the cover is an extension from the trunk, then it is possible to be springy. It can spring open and remained open for the convenience of the archery. May be this is why ancient writers had chosen this word for springiness.

There's a simple explanation on why we see (online at least, not in official publications) 棚 instead of 掤. 掤 is such an ancient word, it doesn't exist in modern usage. I live in U.S. and just use MS. Word for all Chinese language input. And it's not in Microsoft's dictionary. I had to copy and paste it from online sites from Mainland China/Taiwan that has that word. I haven't heard about this other definition, but one of the original meanings basically the same as modern word peng (third tone) 捧 - to hold up something lightly, with barely enough force. So imagine if we're cupping jello or tofu in our hands, and we don't want to crush/deform it in any way.

I think people like to use the old word 掤 instead of 捧 because it wouldn't limit people into thinking it's only done with hands, and only in upward position. As peng in taiji means using just enough force to not collapse - think of our body as a ball, when outside pressure comes, we don't want the ball to deflate. A ball (or water) can only operate as a ball so long as it can maintain shape of ball - that uncompressible force inside we call peng. In taiji we say there must be a little bit yang with yin right, so we can say peng is that shaoyang.

For example if our right arm is in L shape 2 inches in front of body, when someone pushes on the upper arm, if that back of that upper arm is now pressed tight against the torso, then the structural relationship between arm and body has changed. Ideally it shouldn't even when we're yielding on that side. Otherwise we say that is 'weak', which is different from 'soft'. So how do we keep structural integrity without "butting against" the opponent. We just need to, in our mind, think about extending finger of the hand toward the opponent. Of course here the main action is on the other side of the body, the main focus of the mind is on moving the free side, and in doing so (because we developed integration, no part of the body move just by itself), when we move that side it causes the side under pressure to move in such a way as to change the angle of contact between us and the opponent, in doing nullifying his push.

That is the defense side. Of course peng can also we used in offense. People usually talking about using just the force required in defense. But true internal martial art also talk about using just enough in offense as well. In training we want to develop as much force as possible. But in usage we want to be as stingy in offense as in defense.

[taiwandeutscher]

掤 Bing1 is available in MS office!

[Wuyizidi]

掤 Bing1 is available in MS office!

Ha! That was my problem - I was looking under Peng. If I type in "bing" and hit the right arrow 4 times I see 掤. Thanks!

[taiwandeutscher]

But we don't have a long character Lü 履 with the hand radical 扌on the left.
I don't like this one: 捋