Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby johnwang on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:41 pm

- A soldier will clean his riffle daily so he can use it in battle.
- A CMA guy will tough his hands daily so he can use it in fighting.

Can you knock your opponent out with 1 punch? How will you know if you don't test it daily?
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Taste of Death on Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:03 pm

johnwang wrote:- A soldier will clean his riffle daily so he can use it in battle.
- A CMA guy will tough his hands daily so he can use it in fighting.

Can you knock your opponent out with 1 punch? How will you know if you don't test it daily?


I do knuckle pushups on a wooden floor or concrete and hit walls with my fists.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby grzegorz on Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:03 am

Taste of Death wrote:
johnwang wrote:- A soldier will clean his riffle daily so he can use it in battle.
- A CMA guy will tough his hands daily so he can use it in fighting.

Can you knock your opponent out with 1 punch? How will you know if you don't test it daily?


I do knuckle pushups on a wooden floor or concrete and hit walls with my fists.


Do you step into those punches?

Because ultimately this is what a heavy bag allows. Whether it is a makiwara, a stone and tree or concrete walls, what I have never seen is people stepping into those strikes with full force the way they can with a heavy bag.

Nothing wrong with hitting other stuff just pointing out what you can do on a bag.
Last edited by grzegorz on Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
User avatar
grzegorz
Wuji
 
Posts: 6933
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:42 pm
Location: America great yet?

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:38 pm

Taste of Death wrote:Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.
Taste of Death wrote:If you have to add an external practice, which is what heavy bag work is, you are clueless about your cima practice. He thought his yiquan was 1-2 and by adding boxing brought it to 1-2-3. You can ask John Wang. 1 is better than 1-2 and 1-2 is better than 1-2-3.
Taste of Death wrote:I do knuckle pushups on a wooden floor or concrete and hit walls with my fists.

Does hitting walls replicate the human body, which is “mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level?”

If it doesn’t replicate the human body, is hitting walls “almost worthless from a cima perspective?”

Is hitting walls considered CIMA or external practice? If it is external, why do you "have to add an external practice" to your "cima practice?" :)
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Fa Xing on Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:16 pm

Just want to point out that ALL exercise affects your body on a cellular level.
Dr. Troy Schott
Doctor of Chiropractic
Lead Instructor, Ground Dragon Martial Arts
https://grounddragonma.com/
Fa Xing
Anjing
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:11 am

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.
Taste of Death wrote:If you have to add an external practice, which is what heavy bag work is, you are clueless about your cima practice. He thought his yiquan was 1-2 and by adding boxing brought it to 1-2-3. You can ask John Wang. 1 is better than 1-2 and 1-2 is better than 1-2-3.
Taste of Death wrote:I do knuckle pushups on a wooden floor or concrete and hit walls with my fists.

Does hitting walls replicate the human body, which is “mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level?”

If it doesn’t replicate the human body, is hitting walls “almost worthless from a cima perspective?”

Is hitting walls considered CIMA or external practice? If it is external, why do you "have to add an external practice" to your "cima practice?" :)


John asked how I toughen my hands if I just punch the air. Are my hands tough enough to punch on someone's face? Yes.

And the way I hit the wall is internal. The pushups have a Russian flavor to them, though.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby liokault on Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:40 am

This is a stupid conversation.

No one has hands tough enough to punch a head safely at full power, it is at best a lottery of getting the angles correct and the other guy not moving his head at the wrong moment.

I don't think I have met or read anything by anyone who consistently punches people in the head, who hasn't reported regular breaks. Lenny Mcleans springs to mind...airc From his book, his hands were broken after more of less every fight.

On topic.

punching air < bag work >< floor to ceiling ball < pad work.

They all have their place, but a partner who is good on the pads is worth their weight in gold.
liokault
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1074
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:00 am

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Taste of Death on Sat Jan 28, 2017 2:55 pm

liokault wrote:This is a stupid conversation.

No one has hands tough enough to punch a head safely at full power, it is at best a lottery of getting the angles correct and the other guy not moving his head at the wrong moment.

I don't think I have met or read anything by anyone who consistently punches people in the head, who hasn't reported regular breaks. Lenny Mcleans springs to mind...airc From his book, his hands were broken after more of less every fight.

On topic.

punching air < bag work >< floor to ceiling ball < pad work.

They all have their place, but a partner who is good on the pads is worth their weight in gold.


The conversation is about whether practicing cima on a heavy bag is useful. It is useful for many things but cima is not one of them.

Who suggested punching someone in the head? Try the neck out if you want to hit something soft.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:47 pm

marvin8 wrote:When you face the heavy bag as an opponent, you vary your attacks (i.e., not all power punches), while imagining listening (the general English term) to your opponent. Combinations can include offense, defense and movement. . . .

Here’s a video demonstrating setting up your combination, using timing, broken rhythm and defense. You might try incorporating these concepts in your heavy bag combinations . . .

Here the trainer walks towards (forward pressure) Broner. Broner pivots steps around and hits the trainer. After each combination, Broner either pivots or steps out of range to avoid attacks coming back (defensive responsibility). He is mixing defense, timing, and movement in to his combinations . . .

Trevor Jackson demonstrates how to drill some of the concepts, I mentioned above, on a heavy bag.

One can substitute their own way of generating power and techniques (e.g., hit with palms and/or chops vs fists, etc.). Beyond power, technique and speed is the ability to control distance, angle, timing, etc, which can be drilled (somewhat) on a heavy bag.

From http://www.mmawizard.com/amc/page2/page2.html:
Trevor Jackson is the highest ranking instructor personally trained by Matt Hume. Trevor possess the expertise and attention to detail necessary to be an AMC instructor. He is technically superior in his ability to impart the technical aspects of Matt Hume's AMC Pankration system to practitioners of all ages and abilities. Patient, yet demanding, Trevor makes learning easy and fun while challenging the AMC students to constantly improve their knowledge and skill in all areas.

Starting @ 6:00,
• angling
• range

Published on Mar 17, 2016:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU6kNvpok38&t=6m0s

Starting @ 3:11,
• light and fast
• footwork
• inside
• outside
• angle stop
• feints

Published on Mar 17, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOkAWGSoSTw


marvin8 wrote:It's good to think about how an opponent will defend, counter or react to your movement, as you are doing your combinations. Hopefully, this will keep you a step(s) ahead of your opponent:

Published on Mar 17, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_nNKNIGXEg

Published on Mar 20, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sjb-VftM8hs
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby liokault on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:46 am

Taste of Death wrote:
liokault wrote:This is a stupid conversation.

No one has hands tough enough to punch a head safely at full power, it is at best a lottery of getting the angles correct and the other guy not moving his head at the wrong moment.

I don't think I have met or read anything by anyone who consistently punches people in the head, who hasn't reported regular breaks. Lenny Mcleans springs to mind...airc From his book, his hands were broken after more of less every fight.

On topic.

punching air < bag work >< floor to ceiling ball < pad work.

They all have their place, but a partner who is good on the pads is worth their weight in gold.


The conversation is about whether practicing cima on a heavy bag is useful. It is useful for many things but cima is not one of them.

Who suggested punching someone in the head? Try the neck out if you want to hit something soft.




You wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:John asked how I toughen my hands if I just punch the air. Are my hands tough enough to punch on someone's face? Yes.


Guess I'm just from the old school that sees the face as part of the head...a largely bony part at that.

CIMA of no, if your doing a punching art and your not using the punch bag, your operating at a massively sub optimal level.

Punching a wall is not a substitute.
liokault
Great Old One
 
Posts: 1074
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:00 am

Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:18 pm

liokault wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:
liokault wrote:This is a stupid conversation.

No one has hands tough enough to punch a head safely at full power, it is at best a lottery of getting the angles correct and the other guy not moving his head at the wrong moment.

I don't think I have met or read anything by anyone who consistently punches people in the head, who hasn't reported regular breaks. Lenny Mcleans springs to mind...airc From his book, his hands were broken after more of less every fight.

On topic.

punching air < bag work >< floor to ceiling ball < pad work.

They all have their place, but a partner who is good on the pads is worth their weight in gold.


The conversation is about whether practicing cima on a heavy bag is useful. It is useful for many things but cima is not one of them.

Who suggested punching someone in the head? Try the neck out if you want to hit something soft.




You wrote:
Taste of Death wrote:John asked how I toughen my hands if I just punch the air. Are my hands tough enough to punch on someone's face? Yes.


Guess I'm just from the old school that sees the face as part of the head...a largely bony part at that.

CIMA of no, if your doing a punching art and your not using the punch bag, your operating at a massively sub optimal level.

Punching a wall is not a substitute.


One can hit the face with an open hand or strike it close-fisted with a glancing blow.

My comments to John were separate from the heavy bag question. He is always saying that the cima guys only punch the air. We do a lot more than that. For my purposes a tree works better than a bag but a partner is always best.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
User avatar
Taste of Death
Wuji
 
Posts: 1476
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:07 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests