Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:58 pm

Steve James wrote:
Daniel wrote:The resistance of punching into the air is offered by your own body. The more power you generate with the punch, the stronger the stopping power must be. Otherwise you'd dislocate your joint.


That's muscular resistance,


Yep. That was my point. There is resistance there too.

That, however, has nothing to do with the amount of energy exerted by the punch or increasing the punch's power. If that were true, then weightlifters would only use imaginary weights.


Um, have you heard of dynamic tension exercise?

Secondly, punching in the air gives one absolutely no physical feedback with regard to technique. One has actually no effect on the air, and one cannot tell what the effect would be on any opponent.


It's not the air you have an effect on, but the antagonist muscle.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:09 pm

Bao wrote: So trying to hit the air with power, IMHO, build bad habit more than anything else. You really need a bag or similar to achieve destructive power that can go deep inside an opponent.


The resistance offered by the bag is only at end of the movement, i.e. after the explosive power of the technique has already been generated. If you're trying to increase explosive power from the beginning of the movement, I don't really see how hitting a bag helps that. It might help with training to keep your body stable upon impact, and the shock of it may also develop the body in certain ways, but how it specifically increases power to the particular movement is unclear to me. It that regard, I see not much difference between the bag and the air.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:12 pm

If you're talking about isometrics, it is my understanding that ima are anti-isometric exercise. That is, isometrics are based on muscle tension. Boxers use isometrics too. Ali famously used the "Bullworker" exerciser before one of his famous bouts. (I think it was before the Foreman fight). At any rate, isometric exercise usually involves stationary positions because, as you point out, one set of muscles must act against another set.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:20 pm

Steve James wrote:If you're talking about isometrics, it is my understanding that ima are anti-isometric exercise. That is, isometrics are based on muscle tension. Boxers use isometrics too. Ali famously used the "Bullworker" exerciser before one of his famous bouts. (I think it was before the Foreman fight). At any rate, isometric exercise usually involves stationary positions because, as you point out, one set of muscles must act against another set.


No, dynamic tension is purposely moving through tension.

Isometric-exercise is simply non-moving exercise. There's various types, but zhan zhuang can certainly by considered isometric as there's no joint movement occurring. So I wouldn't call IMA anti-isometric at all.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:47 pm

daniel pfister wrote: Suggesting that "punching into thin air" is only a health exercise is rather short-sighted.

johnwang wrote:In CMA, you train 筋骨皮 muscle, bone, skin outside and train Qi inside. If you don't hit on solid object, how will you train your "皮 skin"?

You still have not answered my question. Without "fist meets object" training, how will you know that when your hand punch on your opponent's face, your hand will not be injured.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:00 pm

johnwang wrote:You still have not answered my question. Without "fist meets object" training, how will you know that when your hand punch on your opponent's face, your hand will not be injured.


Face have bones. Hit face, hand hurt. Bag have no bones. Hit bag, not so hurt.

Understand?
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby johnwang on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:08 pm

daniel pfister wrote:Face have bones. Hit face, hand hurt. Bag have no bones. Hit bag, not so hurt.

Understand?

No! I don't understand. How will "punching into the thin air" be any helpful for "not hurting your hand"?

The way that I understand is if

1. A trains punching on heavy bag.
2. B trains punching into the thin air.

When both A's hand and B's hand meet on C's face, A's hand will hurt less than B's hand will.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Steve James on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:12 pm

My point was that isometrics require tension. I haven't heard anyone suggest that is ima technique for achieving power.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 pm

daniel pfister wrote:
johnwang wrote:You still have not answered my question. Without "fist meets object" training, how will you know that when your hand punch on your opponent's face, your hand will not be injured.


Face have bones. Hit face, hand hurt. Bag have no bones. Hit bag, not so hurt.

Understand?


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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby daniel pfister on Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:00 pm

Steve James wrote:My point was that isometrics require tension. I haven't heard anyone suggest that is ima technique for achieving power.


You haven't? Seriously? Well then start a new thread on the topic and I'll happily contribute. Probably doesn't belong here though.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:23 am

daniel pfister wrote:
johnwang wrote:When you punch

- into the thin air, no matter how much power that you can generate, your power will disappear into the thin air. You don't get any "feed back" from your power.


This is a false statement. If you throw a punch at full force "into the thin air" the antagonist muscles need to activate at the end of the movement to prevent joint injury. For an intense punching workout, soreness in the bicep is often experienced as that muscle needs to absorb the power generated by the rest of the body.

When using a bag, the bag will absorb much of the force so the antagonist muscles don't need to. So the feedback experienced will be different, mostly in the agonist muscles like the chest and triceps when using the bag. Some would argue that not using a bag exercises the body more, as force needs to be generated at least twice. Once to throw the punch, and once to stop it from over extending.

I agree with johnwang's statement. His statement was about feedback from contact with the heavy bag, not building muscle. Shadowboxing is not as effective in building power as any type of resistance training. Pull ups and push ups develop back and chest muscles, used in punching. Dips can be used to develop triceps.

Boxing and IMA believe punching power does not rely on muscles, alone. The emphasis is more on delivering power with whole body coordination. As johnwang stated, the heavy bag will give you feedback (e.g., feel, sound) to test structure and alignment. The heavy bag simulates a contact with a person, more than hitting thin air.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:09 pm

marvin8 wrote: Shadowboxing is not as effective in building power as any type of resistance training. Pull ups and push ups develop back and chest muscles, used in punching. Dips can be used to develop triceps.

Boxing and IMA believe punching power does not rely on muscles, alone. The emphasis is more on delivering power with whole body coordination. As johnwang stated, the heavy bag will give you feedback (e.g., feel, sound) to test structure and alignment. The heavy bag simulates a contact with a person, more than hitting thin air.



I'm afraid you are mixing apples with oranges here again, my friend.

All these boxing references and talk about pull ups, push ups, and dips clearly show that you have missed the boat when it comes to IMA training, especially if you are hinting that boxers and IMAists punch and produce power the same way.

Please, take my advice and go meet some good IMA teachers before you talk about the things that you think you know what you are talking about.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:56 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
marvin8 wrote: Shadowboxing is not as effective in building power as any type of resistance training. Pull ups and push ups develop back and chest muscles, used in punching. Dips can be used to develop triceps.

Boxing and IMA believe punching power does not rely on muscles, alone. The emphasis is more on delivering power with whole body coordination. As johnwang stated, the heavy bag will give you feedback (e.g., feel, sound) to test structure and alignment. The heavy bag simulates a contact with a person, more than hitting thin air.



I'm afraid you are mixing apples with oranges here again, my friend.

All these boxing references and talk about pull ups, push ups, and dips clearly show that you have missed the boat when it comes to IMA training, especially if you are hinting that boxers and IMAists punch and produce power the same way.

Please, take my advice and go meet some good IMA teachers before you talk about the things that you think you know what you are talking about.

No. There you go, again. I am hoping not to have to fill my post with disclaimers, everytime. However, it seems with some people, I have to go back to my post, repeat and put disclaimers in, to clarify. I'll do it if I have to, but rather not have to. Because, it gets away from the topic of discussion.

Here's my disclaimer. Boxing and western fighters do tend to do pull ups and dips. I am not speaking of IMA. I am not saying IMA does pull ups and dips. I am only speaking of western fighters, when speaking of pull ups and dips.

It was already discussed how boxing generates power in your post, The ideal physique: East vs. West viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25549. Yes, boxing and IMA both use whole body power. In short, boxing uses kinetic linking and IMA uses internal power (e.g., dantien, etc.). I agree to disagree.

Also, baseball uses their whole body to generate power. Disclaimer: I am not saying baseball player are doing tai chi. It's just a fact that they use their whole body. Many sports uses whole body power. However, there are differences in terminology and training methods.

So, all of the above had nothing to do with heavy bag combinations. I just had to go back and put in disclaimers in my post. I hope this helps in your understanding that I realize there are differences in what tai chi does. I have left these disclaimers in most of my posts. So, I don't understand the confusion.

Why not start another thread on the differences between IMA and EMA (which I already agree there are)? You seem to be very passionate about the subject. In the meantime, any input on heavy bag combinations? :)
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Steve James on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:31 pm

Well, the thread was created as an inquiry into using heavy bags for training. Some ima schools use them; some hit other things; some do both. I think it's perfectly possible to develop a powerful punch without using a heavy bag. As John said, one can practice on a living person. However, that has advantages and disadvantages. Now, one can argue that punching into the air will increase one's power. Of course, that increase is all just speculation until one actually hits something. Hitting sand, wood or water all work. But, I'm not sure people practice ima in order to hit those things.
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Re: Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

Postby Taste of Death on Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:43 am

Practicing cima on one's own is only a small part of the equation although for most of us it is most of our training time. The human body is mostly water and in cima is effected on a cellular level, something that is impossible to replicate on a heavy bag. The heavy bag is almost worthless from a cima perspective.
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