Favorite Heavy Bag Combinations

[marvin8]

I don't have time nor really the inclination to explain it, more so since you seem to selectively focus on different points.

No its not practiced as you suggest, nor is it to develop the "neural pathways" for the
movement for itself, which if it did or was used in this way, would end up developing what
some term as "dead" movement.

I see no point in sharing or suggesting clips, by what measure would someone who has not felt
it, trained it, or even understand it,
view it by? It would only invite more questions...

You're misrepresenting, again.

I did not suggest that was the purpose of the form or movement. It's something that just happens. The more you practice, the more movement become reflexes, without consciously thinking about it.

Yes, I could not find any fight clips of the mentioned high level skills either.

Sincerley, good luck on your journey, also.

[windwalker]

The more you practice, the more movement become reflexes, without consciously thinking about it.

which is the exact opposite of this approach. Reflexive movement is often called 'blind or dead"
Its part of what separates practices like taiji from other practices.

way off topic, hitting bags while good for somethings will tend to lead to bad habits and
work counter to those seeking IMA skill sets. There is only one way to find out why this is so...

[marvin8]

The more you practice, the more movement become reflexes, without consciously thinking about it.

which is the exact opposite of this approach. Reflexive movement is often called 'blind or dead"
Its part of what separates practices like taiji from other practices.

way off topic, hitting bags while good for somethings will tend to lead to bad habits and
work counter to those seeking IMA skill sets. There is only one way to find out why this is so...

Well, watch Tyson training on the bag; then watch him in a bout.

I agree. One way to find out is to post the training and how it transfers to an actual fight (competition or street). Steve James has posted videos of Mike Tyson's training on the heavy bag. These skills were transferred to actual fights. What Tyson did in training, he did in fights. Tyson's fights are captured on video on youtube.

The fact is, most or all of the top ranked combat fighters use the heavy bag.

[Bao]

The fact is, most or all of the top ranked combat fighters use the heavy bag.

Let me guess... this is a sort of trick question... They use the heavy bag to practice tingjin skill? Am I right? What prize did I win?

But sure, if you like fighting with gloves and combat sports that utilise gloves, yes practice punching on a heavy bag is a very good idea....
Though I didn't know that tingjin was a boxing skill and peng a boxing concept...

After being on the RSF I have started to like boxing more and more. Because threads like this make IMA look more and more like western boxing....

[Steve James]

There are five punches in the normal tcc long form. Even if the argument is that they are not punches like boxing punches (true), the fact is that they are strikes. Of course, they're not just strikes, but as strikes they can certainly be practiced on a bag or inanimate object. A heavy bag is one thing, but there are plenty of videos of cma practitioners striking (or shouldering) a tree or something else.

If there are kicks in tcc (rhetorically), then those kicks can be practiced by themselves. Listening skill determines when and where to strike or kick. And, inanimate objects --as Bruce used to say "Don't hit back."

Re: Tyson, his style of boxing makes him very hard to hit. When he uses the bag, he avoids it, then delivers a combination of strikes (sometimes 5 or 7). If you can listen well enough to avoid his strikes, you're half way there . Hey, reminds me of the scene with Donnie Yen (who was supposed to be doing Wing Chun. (Oh, just for fun).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmmCBP-bBWQ

Btw, it's reported that Yen accidentally broke one of Mike's fingers. ...Please, just a rumor, not evidence.

[Steve James]

Looking at the Yen v Tyson film scene, I notice that Tyson throws a bunch of straight jabs. However, Tyson's a "bobber/weaver/hooker" (i.e., he throws a lot of round punches. For example,


In the Douglas fight, Tyson met a guy with a decent jab (nothing like Holmes, for ex), and he got knocked out when he stood straight up and didn't bob and weave.

[Greg J]

The more you practice, the more movement become reflexes, without consciously thinking about it.

which is the exact opposite of this approach. Reflexive movement is often called 'blind or dead"
Its part of what separates practices like taiji from other practices.

Isn't one of the points of martial arts practice (Taiji and otherwise) to become so familiar with the movements (internal and external) that you cease to have to think consciously about them when performing them?

When I hear the words "dead movement" I think of a technique executed limply, with no real energy, power, or flow. To me the opposite of "dead movement" would be "live movement" or "aliveness." Being better able to execute a technique with "aliveness" (in my experience) comes from becoming familiar and comfortable with the movements....which comes from...lots of practice ; by practicing the application of these techniques in a progressively less choreographed and more resistant way; actually using the techniques while in an adrenal state; and being able to apply these techniques full force (this is where the heavy bag, tire, sandbag, telephone pole, etc. come in).

I think I get where you are coming from (and I apologize if I misunderstand) - that just striking a bag (no matter how dynamically one practices) isn't going to allow a person to perform at a high level against another skilled, resisting, opponent. But it can be (IMHO) an important training tool for helping one get to that level.

Best,
Greg

[Bao]

There are five punches in the normal tcc long form. Even if the argument is that they are not punches like boxing punches (true), the fact is that they are strikes. Of course, they're not just strikes, but as strikes they can certainly be practiced on a bag or inanimate object. A heavy bag is one thing, but there are plenty of videos of cma practitioners striking (or shouldering) a tree or something else.

You make it sound like a Tai Chi punch is the same as a boxing punch. The question is not IF you can strike a bag or not with tai chi punch. The question is about when you strike a bag, is it a Tai Chi punch or not. When you hit a bag, are you using tai chi body mechanics or not?

Listening skill determines when and where to strike or kick. And, inanimate objects --as Bruce used to say "Don't hit back."

So your point is that the bag can not tell you when to hit or kick, so that means you should not hit or kick a bag?

Hey, reminds me of the scene with Donnie Yen (who was supposed to be doing Wing Chun. (Oh, just for fun).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmmCBP-bBWQ

Wow, that scene was really stupid.

[marvin8]

The more you practice, the more movement become reflexes, without consciously thinking about it.

which is the exact opposite of this approach. Reflexive movement is often called 'blind or dead"
Its part of what separates practices like taiji from other practices.

Well, this tai chi teacher is making the same observation I made, http://riyadh-taiji-qigong.blogspot.com/:

Repeating movements many times is essential. It leads to the creation of neural pathways, which allow movements to be performed instinctively without conscious thought, increasing speed and relaxation.

The fact is, most or all of the top ranked combat fighters use the heavy bag.

Let me guess... this is a sort of trick question... They use the heavy bag to practice tingjin skill? Am I right? What prize did I win?

But sure, if you like fighting with gloves and combat sports that utilise gloves, yes practice punching on a heavy bag is a very good idea....
Though I didn't know that tingjin was a boxing skill and peng a boxing concept...

After being on the RSF I have started to like boxing more and more. Because threads like this make IMA look more and more like western boxing....

You didn't win anything. Because, I never used the word "tingjin."

When you face the heavy bag as an opponent, you vary your attacks (i.e., not all power punches), while imagining listening (the general English term) to your opponent. Combinations can include offense, defense and movement. Here’s an article excerpt discussing the importance of imagining an opponent, while performing the tai chi form, https://ymaa.com/articles/yang-tai-chi-for-beginners:

Whether you just want to learn Tai Chi for your health, or you intend to follow the traditional progression of the learning the sequence, pushing hands, sparring, and eventually weapons, it is important that you develop a sense of enemy in your practice. Watch a Tai Chi master perform a sequence, and you may see that it looks like he/she is having a slow motion battle against invisible opponents. By learning the originally-intended purpose of a Tai Chi movement, which is known as its martial application, you will learn the finer points of exactly where your hands and feet should be. You develop a sense of enemy by visualizing that your Tai Chi movement is being used against an opponent.

Dr Yang, "Even when you can do the form very well, it may still be dead. To make it come alive you must develop a sense of enemy. When practicing the solo sequence, you must imagine there is an enemy in front of you, and you must clearly feel his movements and his interaction with you. Your ability to visualize realistically will be greatly aided if you practice the techniques with a partner. There are times when you will not use visualizations, but every time you do the sequence your movement must be flavored with this knowledge of how you interact with an opponent. The more you practice with this imaginary enemy before you, the more realistic and useful your practice will be. If you practice with a very vivid sense of enemy, you will learn to apply your qi and jin (power) naturally, and your whole spirit will melt into the sequence. This is not unlike performing music. If one musician just plays the music and the other plays it with his whole heart and mind, the two performances are as different as night and day. In one case the music is dead, while in the other it is alive and touches us."

Not only does a sense of enemy develop correct posture and give life to your performance, but it is also important for your health.

Yes, listening (the general English term) is a boxing skill. Here's an excerpt from Ba-men in a past thread,

What is being described here is not deficiency of Ting Jin. This is about is Dong jin. Someone who does not give you a physical telegraph is at a high level... However.... that is where your Dong Jin comes into play. You must be able to understand what is happening (and about to happen... the opponent's possible intentions ) from the opponent's structure. Its not magical. Its understanding where his weapons are: what angles will be applied: what possible defenses will come into play etc. . . .

No offense...But this leads to serious trouble " considering most striking art like Boxing develop Dong Jin to a high level (due to extreme brief explosive contact) Its one of the reasons why too much Tui Shou leads to trouble (too much investment in Ting jin not enough development of Dong jin) . . .

Doing Judo as many years as I have I doubt this... but let's suppose its somewhat true (I have seen in some cases a Judoka rely on a select few techniques honed to win a few tournaments) yet, again its their Dong jin (the ability to understand the opponent's offensive and defensive intentions) that allowed them to set up their "bread and butter" techniques...

If your Dong Jin is developed you don't need to make contact with an opponent to understand what's going on. Its basic sparring 101. yea their are levels of this but that's for another thread.

Here's what I said about peng and the heavy bag:

I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.

Stuart Shaw, Gary Gee and the following guy may have a wider definition of peng, whether correct or not (I am not saying they're correct):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMsXgw_KfG4&t=432s

[daniel pfister]

There's an interesting discussion to be had here about skilled and unskilled movement (perhaps for a different thread), but since it's already going, I'll jump in.

Technically speaking (from a motor learning POV) a skilled movement is one which requires little to no conscious thought. Such programmed and refined movements are mostly controlled by the cerebellum and other regions of the brain that aren't associated with conscious thought, unlike the motor cortex that is associated with more conscious, ie unskilled movement. These control processes have neural pathways that go from our sensory inputs (sight and touch) fairly directly to the motor pathways, such that they bypass the thinking parts of the brain for quicker responses.

Thinking about this we can possibly begin to understand what people might be talking about when they say things like they're able to "respond to a movement before it is initiated." I interpret this as actually meaning that the person made a movement which they were not consciously aware of (and thus didn't initiate it in the normal sense) and the other person also responded to it in a skilled (non-conscious) way such that the movement and counter movement occurred with neither party "initiating" the actions, and therefore seemed to happen instantaneously, yet really just happened faster than their conscious mind could process.

The example illustrates both the pros and cons of so-called skilled movement. Of course skilled movements are much faster than unskilled movements. Yet they are fast because they are programmed to be done with only slight variations every time and are outside of conscious control. Movements that are programmed can possibly be interpreted and even initiated by others, such as when boxers fake a punch in order to create an opening elsewhere.

IMO, all martial art training must have a balance of skilled training and unskilled (intuitive, interpretive, non-programmed) training. If you only had skilled movements you may have problems adapting to new situations. Likewise, if you only practiced intuitively, you could never move as fast as someone who practiced a movement thousands of times. Exactly what that balance is depends on a lot of factors, and I think it is the source of much of the debate about the concepts of peng and tingjin among others. But mainly, I think the answer lies in what each individual wishes to develop in their training.

For my concept of taijiquan, it is the movements of the legs and torso which we practice as skilled movements while moving the attention away from the hands during solo practice. When practicing push hands, you let your opponents movements and pressure dictate where your hands should go, and you endeavor to pick up on any of their programmed movements. This also works pretty well with what we understand about the nervous system, in that the hands are more capable of precision movements (due to greater greater innervation and representation in the brain) than are the legs (excepting the feet) and the waist. But this is just one approach, and admittedly an oversimplified one at that.

AFA the Op is concerned, the debate here doesn't seem to be about the heavy bag, but is actually about the training of combinations on it. Training combinations is a skilled practice. You either think those combinations are useful for your practice or not. Yet, as pointed out, there are other ways to use a heavy bag than to train combinations.

[Steve James]

Well, there's nothing that stops a tcc practitioner from using the punches, kicks, chops, and palms to hit a bag using them. Perfectly cool with me. But, there are tcc practitioners who can and do. Different strokes.

[Bao]

Yes, listening (the general English term) is a boxing skill. Here's an excerpt from Ba-men in a past thread,

What is being described here is not deficiency of Ting Jin. This is about is Dong jin. Someone who does not give you a physical telegraph is at a high level... However.... that is where your Dong Jin comes into play. You must be able to understand what is happening (and about to happen... the opponent's possible intentions ) from the opponent's structure. Its not magical. Its understanding where his weapons are: what angles will be applied: what possible defenses will come into play etc. . . .

No offense...But this leads to serious trouble " considering most striking art like Boxing develop Dong Jin to a high level (due to extreme brief explosive contact) Its one of the reasons why too much Tui Shou leads to trouble (too much investment in Ting jin not enough development of Dong jin) . . .

Doing Judo as many years as I have I doubt this... but let's suppose its somewhat true (I have seen in some cases a Judoka rely on a select few techniques honed to win a few tournaments) yet, again its their Dong jin (the ability to understand the opponent's offensive and defensive intentions) that allowed them to set up their "bread and butter" techniques...

If your Dong Jin is developed you don't need to make contact with an opponent to understand what's going on. Its basic sparring 101. yea their are levels of this but that's for another thread.

Tingjin and Dongjin is, IMO, two different things.

Donjing, understanding force, can be without touch, similar to what Li Yaxuan says:
"Even before physical contact, with a single glance you join contact with the opponent or partner, establishing a firm connection with him. Adherence can begin even at this stage, prior to physical contact. This is important because when you are working in a more intensive competitive or combative mode, if you depend on physical contact to start your adherence, that’s too late and you’re going to be too slow to exploit any advantage of timing or positioning."

Tingjin though is to listen to force in a most physical way, feeling strength, movements, changes, through touching or any physical connection to the opponent. If you rely on tingjin you don't need to think, you just react, letting your sensitivity decide what to do.
"Only with a formless sensitivity will you be able to counter anything he may unexpectedly throw at you. "
(Li Yaxuan again).
When you watch, there is always a delay, relying on tingjin is faster and more direct. This is why in Tai Chi we try to go in for any kind of physical connection as soon as possible. That is also why a boxing or general sparring jumping around style has nothing to do with Tai Chi strategy. If you think like a boxer, you don't do tai chi. Just like Windwalker said, it's a very different outlook.

Here's what I said about peng and the heavy bag:

I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.

Maybe I misunderstood or quoted wrongly....

[windwalker]

A little far off good combos to use on a bag.

When I was younger practicing different CMA styles we used to use bags although maybe not in the boxing style although one CMA gym I practiced at did for those working to enter full contact events of the day along with jumping rope. They borrowed what training methods they needed to fight in the events.

A good cheap way of working with a bag is to get a couple of military duffel bags put one inside the other fill it with sand.
This should weigh a couple of hundred pounds. Make sure that whatever its hung on can support the weight.

We would swing the bag and practice stopping the bag with whatever hit or kick we wanted to work on. The other way was to hit the still bag not so much to “move” it, but to listen to the sound one made at the impact as an indication of penetration. Another drill was for someone to feel the opposite side of the bag and see if they could feel the impact through the bag by the one practicing.

"caution" the canvas is very hard on the skin, the bag is very unforgiving, hit it wrong or misaligned one will only do it once, if they'er not too injured from the mistake the first time. The bag can be a good teacher but unforgiving with mistakes.

No longer use nor work with bags as others have said some do, some don’t in taiji depending on focus, understanding and skill level.

As far as “tingjin” & “dongjin”

I leave definitive definitions to the native speakers or those more conversant in the Chinese language then me.

my outlook and understanding

“Tingjin” ability to listen to another's “jin” developed by working with others who have and can express “jin” and distinguish between what most call “force” enabling the other to feel and know the difference.

“Dongjin” Understanding force. Arrived through the process of first having developed “tingjin”
Allowing one to distinguish between “force” and “jin” there are many different types of “jin” each with it’s own characteristics. “Dongjin” is the ability to distinguish and understand/know each type...once this is achieved. One knows, “following is leading, leading is following” becomes very clear and usable.

[marvin8]

Yes, listening (the general English term) is a boxing skill. Here's an excerpt from Ba-men in a past thread, . . .

Tingjin and Dongjin is, IMO, two different things.

Donjing, understanding force, can be without touch, similar to what Li Yaxuan says:
"Even before physical contact, with a single glance you join contact with the opponent or partner, establishing a firm connection with him. Adherence can begin even at this stage, prior to physical contact. This is important because when you are working in a more intensive competitive or combative mode, if you depend on physical contact to start your adherence, that’s too late and you’re going to be too slow to exploit any advantage of timing or positioning."

Tingjin though is to listen to force in a most physical way, feeling strength, movements, changes, through touching or any physical connection to the opponent. If you rely on tingjin you don't need to think, you just react, letting your sensitivity decide what to do.
"Only with a formless sensitivity will you be able to counter anything he may unexpectedly throw at you. "
(Li Yaxuan again).
When you watch, there is always a delay, relying on tingjin is faster and more direct. This is why in Tai Chi we try to go in for any kind of physical connection as soon as possible. That is also why a boxing or general sparring jumping around style has nothing to do with Tai Chi strategy. If you think like a boxer, you don't do tai chi. Just like Windwalker said, it's a very different outlook.

Here's what I said about peng and the heavy bag:

I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.

Maybe I misunderstood or quoted wrongly....

I myself did not use the words tingjin or dongjin:

High level combat fighters can control their opponents from a distance by their footwork, feints, positioning, controlling the distance, etc. Of course they also trap hands, stick, control, underhook, tie up hands and grapple, too.

IMO, a fight starts before physical contact, as stated above. A person can be hurt from long range, as witnessed in the last two fights of Olympic judo medalist Ronda Rousey (mostly poor long and medium range skills) versus Holm and Nunes, who are good medium and long range fighters. IMO, not having to make contact to control your opponent is faster than having to wait to make contact with the opponent.

Bao, IMO, windwalker and you spent too much time implying I was trying to show that boxing is the same as tai chi, when I explained I was not. This distracts from the content of the discussion.

I tried to give a more complete description of western heavy bag combinations, by using an article, video and my own understanding. I didn't comment on whether it's the same or different from CMA.

It may add to the discussion, if one wants to explain the principles and strategies of the Yi quan heavy bag video, rather than just say it's "different" or join your local CMA school.

You're misrepresenting. I did not attribute nor equate. I explained that other martial arts train sensitivity, connection and control, however different:

However, I appreciate the comments and opinions, you made on the content of the discussion.

I was not speaking of boxing, only. I usually use boxing videos, as they are readily available. I mentioned other combat sports; MMA, muay thai, kickboxing, sambo and referred to westerners. If you want to take issue with the content of what I actually post, I am interested in hearing different viewpoints. But, I rather hear about the content, rather than me.

Zhao Daoxin, a participant in the 1929 Hangzhou Leitai tournament, had this to say in an interview:

There are a lot of shortcomings and taboos. Apart from those that are common for all (Chinese) martial arts, there are others that are style-specific. For example, everyone fears that their style will resemble some other style, so they try hard to make it look different. If you tell a baguazhang practitioner that his movements resemble taijiquan, he will hardly accept your opinion. If you tell some xingyiquan practitioner that you see some similarities between his art and western boxing, he'll feel bad about it.

Actually, the differences between styles are more in ritual gestures than in their way of fighting. . . .

Phillip Starr Commentary:
It's very true that everyone wants the style that he or she practices to be separate from all others and bear certain hallmarks that no one else uses. Zhao chides the old teachers who don't want to admit that they can no longer perform as they did when they were younger, and who subsequently make up stories about why techniques such as kicking are dangerous and shouldn't be used. In studying his remarks, I think he is laying a lot of the blame for the deterioration of kung-fu squarely in the laps of the oldsters who will not teach the truth and who emphasize following tradition over and above studying martial arts.

[Trick]

Yes, listening (the general English term) is a boxing skill. Here's an excerpt from Ba-men in a past thread,

What is being described here is not deficiency of Ting Jin. This is about is Dong jin. Someone who does not give you a physical telegraph is at a high level... However.... that is where your Dong Jin comes into play. You must be able to understand what is happening (and about to happen... the opponent's possible intentions ) from the opponent's structure. Its not magical. Its understanding where his weapons are: what angles will be applied: what possible defenses will come into play etc. . . .

No offense...But this leads to serious trouble " considering most striking art like Boxing develop Dong Jin to a high level (due to extreme brief explosive contact) Its one of the reasons why too much Tui Shou leads to trouble (too much investment in Ting jin not enough development of Dong jin) . . .

Doing Judo as many years as I have I doubt this... but let's suppose its somewhat true (I have seen in some cases a Judoka rely on a select few techniques honed to win a few tournaments) yet, again its their Dong jin (the ability to understand the opponent's offensive and defensive intentions) that allowed them to set up their "bread and butter" techniques...

If your Dong Jin is developed you don't need to make contact with an opponent to understand what's going on. Its basic sparring 101. yea their are levels of this but that's for another thread.

Tingjin and Dongjin is, IMO, two different things.

Donjing, understanding force, can be without touch, similar to what Li Yaxuan says:
"Even before physical contact, with a single glance you join contact with the opponent or partner, establishing a firm connection with him. Adherence can begin even at this stage, prior to physical contact. This is important because when you are working in a more intensive competitive or combative mode, if you depend on physical contact to start your adherence, that’s too late and you’re going to be too slow to exploit any advantage of timing or positioning."

Tingjin though is to listen to force in a most physical way, feeling strength, movements, changes, through touching or any physical connection to the opponent. If you rely on tingjin you don't need to think, you just react, letting your sensitivity decide what to do.
"Only with a formless sensitivity will you be able to counter anything he may unexpectedly throw at you. "
(Li Yaxuan again).
When you watch, there is always a delay, relying on tingjin is faster and more direct. This is why in Tai Chi we try to go in for any kind of physical connection as soon as possible. That is also why a boxing or general sparring jumping around style has nothing to do with Tai Chi strategy. If you think like a boxer, you don't do tai chi. Just like Windwalker said, it's a very different outlook.

Here's what I said about peng and the heavy bag:

I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.

Maybe I misunderstood or quoted wrongly....

. Clinch fighting is a solid part of boxing and those skilled at it have some very good tingjin'ish skill. About Li Yaxuan's take on "Dongjin" is also what boxers do. Boxing and taijiquan, just different methods for develop combat skill. Now at least for me taijiquan practice offers more than just combat skill, and that's why i'm into it, but i do like to hit the bags, and to get back to the topic of this tread my favorite bag striking are lower punch(body strike) and emidietly switch to an upper level hook, for kicks i like doing front kick and then hit the bag on it's return swing with a side kick