Bao wrote:marvin8 wrote:Yes, listening (the general English term) is a boxing skill. Here's an excerpt from Ba-men in a past thread, . . .
Tingjin and Dongjin is, IMO, two different things.
Donjing, understanding force, can be without touch, similar to what Li Yaxuan says:
"Even before physical contact, with a single glance you join contact with the opponent or partner, establishing a firm connection with him. Adherence can begin even at this stage, prior to physical contact. This is important because when you are working in a more intensive competitive or combative mode, if you depend on physical contact to start your adherence, that’s too late and you’re going to be too slow to exploit any advantage of timing or positioning."
Tingjin though is to listen to force in a most physical way, feeling strength, movements, changes, through touching or any physical connection to the opponent. If you rely on tingjin you don't need to think, you just react, letting your sensitivity decide what to do.
"Only with a formless sensitivity will you be able to counter anything he may unexpectedly throw at you. "
(Li Yaxuan again).
When you watch, there is always a delay, relying on tingjin is faster and more direct. This is why in Tai Chi we try to go in for any kind of physical connection as soon as possible. That is also why a boxing or general sparring jumping around style has nothing to do with Tai Chi strategy. If you think like a boxer, you don't do tai chi. Just like Windwalker said, it's a very different outlook.
Here's what I said about peng and the heavy bag:
marvin8 wrote:I was speaking more of the concept of practicing defense and offense as one move. Not practicing peng, lu, ji, an on the heavy bag.
Maybe I misunderstood or quoted wrongly....
I myself did not use the words tingjin or dongjin:
marvin8 wrote:High level combat fighters can control their opponents from a distance by their footwork, feints, positioning, controlling the distance, etc. Of course they also trap hands, stick, control, underhook, tie up hands and grapple, too.
IMO, a fight starts before physical contact, as stated above. A person can be hurt from long range, as witnessed in the last two fights of Olympic judo medalist Ronda Rousey (mostly poor long and medium range skills) versus Holm and Nunes, who are good medium and long range fighters. IMO, not having to make contact to control your opponent is faster than having to wait to make contact with the opponent.
Bao, IMO, windwalker and you spent too much time implying I was trying to show that boxing is the same as tai chi, when I explained I was not. This distracts from the content of the discussion.
marvin8 wrote:I tried to give a more complete description of western heavy bag combinations, by using an article, video and my own understanding. I didn't comment on whether it's the same or different from CMA.
It may add to the discussion, if one wants to explain the principles and strategies of the Yi quan heavy bag video, rather than just say it's "different" or join your local CMA school.
marvin8 wrote:You're misrepresenting. I did not attribute nor equate. I explained that other martial arts train sensitivity, connection and control, however different:
However, I appreciate the comments and opinions, you made on the content of the discussion.
I was not speaking of boxing, only. I usually use boxing videos, as they are readily available. I mentioned other combat sports; MMA, muay thai, kickboxing, sambo and referred to westerners. If you want to take issue with the content of what I actually post, I am interested in hearing different viewpoints. But, I rather hear about the content, rather than me.
Zhao Daoxin, a participant in the 1929 Hangzhou Leitai tournament, had this to say in an interview:
Zhao Daoxin wrote:There are a lot of shortcomings and taboos. Apart from those that are common for all (Chinese) martial arts, there are others that are style-specific. For example, everyone fears that their style will resemble some other style, so they try hard to make it look different. If you tell a baguazhang practitioner that his movements resemble taijiquan, he will hardly accept your opinion. If you tell some xingyiquan practitioner that you see some similarities between his art and western boxing, he'll feel bad about it.
Actually, the differences between styles are more in ritual gestures than in their way of fighting. . . .
Phillip Starr Commentary:
It's very true that everyone wants the style that he or she practices to be separate from all others and bear certain hallmarks that no one else uses. Zhao chides the old teachers who don't want to admit that they can no longer perform as they did when they were younger, and who subsequently make up stories about why techniques such as kicking are dangerous and shouldn't be used. In studying his remarks, I think he is laying a lot of the blame for the deterioration of kung-fu squarely in the laps of the oldsters who will not teach the truth and who emphasize following tradition over and above studying martial arts.